Saxman's Sonic Boom Engine

Discussion in 'Gallery of Dumbasses' started by saxman, Mar 12, 2015.

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  1. Dark Lips

    Dark Lips Well-Known Member Member

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    I know its not just about the name Pacguy - even so its still a load of BS - we all sposed to be adults with common interests and instead we all seem to bitch and snarl at each other... why do you think I have never posted any of my work on either here or retro recently? becasue a long time a go I showed of my redemption project and had it pulled to peices, I dont need that kinda crap and I can only imagine Saxman dosnt need this crap either. Probably going to get hammered and banned or something but oh well.... EVERYBODY GROW THE HELL UP!!!
     
  2. snkenjoi

    snkenjoi Well-Known Member Member

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    What the hell is wrong with you. I have never begged you to do anything via PM, please stop lying to everyone. Why do I need to repeat this?!
     
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  3. iojnekns

    iojnekns OBAMA '012!!!!1!!!!!&#33 Member

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    Yeah, if I lampshade the fact that I'm being petty front and centre, it makes you repeating it kind of redundant.  It's a shame, because I'd expect someone who's so grown up and 30 years old to be a bit better at seeing things from other people's perspective.

    "Enhancement" is a strong word for something which doesn't actually add anything new, IMO.  I suppose technically putting a spindash in Sonic 1 is an "enhancement" of Sonic 1, if that's what you mean.  I take it from the way you've framed that though, that you consider creating hacking tools to be a loftier pursuit than actually making hacks.  You just can't put a price on that kind of disdain for your target audience.

    An unfortunate argument really.  If you can't keep track of two names with completely different starting letters and spellings, it isn't a great omen for naming your project the exact same fucking thing as our project, now, does it?  We'll sidestep the misrepresentation about the content of the messages, for now, as I don't want to embarrass you about all the racist PMs you send me each week ;D

    Presumably this is why the first public release of Saxman's Sonic Boom engine came complete with a level format which was unsupported by any available level editor?

    Ahhh, you mean like we did, when a member of the team (snkenjoi) did exactly that... sorry, I mean "begged"?  I believe your proposition was that you would agree to consider it as long as we debased our project by shilling for your unrelated, but identically named "engine enhancement".  Because that wouldn't be at all misleading... or dishonest.

    Nastiness aside - I appreciate what it's like to be on the receiving end of a dogpile and I do have some empathy for your position, so I'm sorry for being a small enough person that I couldn't let this lie, no matter how beautifully satirical it might have been in execution. I'm happy enough to call it a day here, but it'd be nice if you could at least acknowledge that you could see my side of things here.

    I will say to you though, that the people bringing criticism to your door aren't exactly ships in the night.  You're getting comments here from some prolific, accomplished and extremely knowledgeable folks.  MJ, Cinossu, Flamewing et al are not the sort of people who spend their precious time stoking drama for drama's sake.
     
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  4. amphobius

    amphobius spreader of the pink text Member

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    I really can't sit by and watch this thread go on without my opinion.

    The idea of a one base fits all is a novel concept. There's multiple issues with it, however.

    • It encourages laziness. People will see this and go "oh, it has Knuckles in it! Now I don't have to learn how to port code from the S2K UPMEM / S3K". This leads to many problems - including several members getting aggravated when these members will eventually question everything and never stop asking questions about the smallest of things.
    • The original release only used the 32X minimally. Cool, you're adding PWM support, which I may look into for chiptune purposes, but you're still late on doing this 32X thing. drx ported Sonic 1 to the 32x years ago.
    • It's running on the old disassemblies. This is a bad idea.
    • The name.
    I have to say, you're the one that's being salty about this. Not iojnekns, not snkenjoi, you are, Saxman. If you weren't upset, I highly suspect you wouldn't be falling to lies and misinformation (and telling ioj to grow up, nice), and rather would be more willing to rename the project to something more neutral, I imagine. Instead, you're getting visibly upset and saying "oh noes the thread's gotten derailed again" when people are aiming criticism to you and your project. It's not wise to ignore that.
     
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  5. Flamewing

    Flamewing Elite Hacker Member

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    Yes, and you are missing the obvious takeaway message: the people criticizing the name and/or your actions are doing so because they feel said name/actions eclipse whatever you did with the engine. They don't delve in to take more than a cursory look at the engine: they are pissed off at you in varying degrees, and won't be interested in helping along until you take some action to create some good will. Instead, you seem to be doing your best to dismiss their concerns, belittle them, and piss them off more.


    As for myself, the reason I didn't comment anything about the engine is because I am on the "underwhelmed" camp. The level layout format is interesting, sure, and you used a really clever pointer trick in the Nemesis queue*; but that's about it; there is nothing special in the feature list, and starting from the 2007 disassembly puts it at a considerable disadvantage.

    Even the 32x version is underwhelming: you got all the might of the twin 32-bit SH-2 processors in your hands and you use them to... decompress Kosinski. As you mention, this leads to a modest increase in loading speed; the reason for that is because Kosinski is already fast, even on the 68k. If you really want to use the SH-2s to decompress stuff (and there are far better uses for them), you should use them to decompress Nemesis and Enigma, these are the real time eaters: Kosinski can decompress on the order of hundreds of tiles per frame on the 68k, Nemesis can generally decompress a bit more than 6 (and generally, it decompresses only 3 so that the 68k can do other things).


    * You did miss an opportunity of making an effectively endless Nemesis queue, though, using a completely different approach and without using any more RAM. I will be releasing it soon, for what is worth.
     
  6. Clownacy

    Clownacy Well-Known Member Staff

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    What's so great about this? There's the 32x implementation, improved PLC queue, layout format, and the upcoming S1 option, and that last one's debatable as all hell.


    While one of the main things people keep mentioning is the 'pre-made' factor, it's nothing unique: many, including me, have began using SVN tools, and can use them create our own optimal 'fixed' disassembly, which we can then base all future work on, meaning that we only have to fix bugs once; make a big change and clean up the many resulting bugs once. That is in many ways better than the zero that this project forces on its user. You say, if one wants to practice assembly, they should just tweak existing code. Why should they do that? Why would they want to do that? You saw ZennorHax: he saw this project, saw it as an excuse to not do anything himself, and asked you to implement a feature for him. Some people have self-drive; others need a little push. This is where guides, especially the ambiguous ones, help. If they feel their hack is lacking, they will want to improve it, and learn everything they need in order to do so. What you're doing isn't going to bring new talent to the hacking scene; it's going to make us die out quicker, as newcomers will become reliant, not on themselves, but on others. Your project enforces this reliance.


    You could say that a desire for unique features such as movesets would be enough of a push to get someone interested in the code, but I've seen more than enough people who'll think 'this pre-made code has everything I want, I don't need to add anything', and proceed to move on to level design, ignoring the code completely from then on. For them, the aforementioned guides are the only push they have.


    And, yes, talent in programming does matter. Sections of even the likes of Sonic 1 are hardcoded, and working around that will limit, and can even cripple, a hack. And even with this in their face, the hacker will not dare to do anything about it, because they do not know any better.


    Another problem is the basis on Xenowhirl's disassembly. How can you expect someone to learn by tweaking code that isn't readable? I get that that's how people were in the early days, but things have gotten better since then, being made more intuitive without being oversimplified. And no, the 'apple and oranges' excuse doesn't work here: this is nowhere near as documented as the Git disassembly. Just look at that sound driver; there is no benefit to using that old thing, and developing 'alternate documentation' will only complicate things.


    Speaking of complication, in the project's current public state, you're actively working against those that want to use their own disassembly of choice: there exist no guides for any of this project's unique features, so you aren't even fully realising the educational potential of this project, again favouring those that don't want to learn. At least guides catered to both those that just want the feature, and those that want to understand it. In this case, you're forced to reverse-engineer it. All of this just to save some people some time and effort, please... Hopefully, you'll stick to what you said on Retro, and try to make things more accessible in the next release.


    Because I couldn't find a good place to put this, I'll just have it here: learning through example, and through reverse-engineering, are two different things; eliminating one is not a good thing. Some prefer one to the other, which is why both are available, and sometimes forced on the hacker through guides. Sometimes, the hacker doesn't know what they need.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2015
  7. MainMemory

    MainMemory Well-Known Member Member

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    The only thing I even remotely care about in this whole thing is the level layout format, and that's only because you've been asking me to support it in SonLVL for the past three years.

    When you first started, the format was already more complicated than any other Sonic game's, which I guess isn't a huge deal, it just seems unnecessary to me.

    But then you decided to make separate sections for graphics and collision in the FG layout, which I really don't understand. How often do you have a chunk where the graphics can be used with multiple collision settings? Additionally, this is something that no editor can properly support without major UI and code changes.

    I just don't understand it.
     
  8. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester ♡ ! Member

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    You are right, around here, people do tend to jump on each other over the silliest little things, and believe me, I have mentioned this on several occasions, including (and not limited to); posts on these forums from time to time, on IRC in casual chit-chat, and generally towards the staff directly. I too have had my work slammed over minor things, I do understand where you are coming from entirely.

    The difference here though, is that you, me, and everyone else, did not try plugging in our work in places it did not belong, just to get attention. THAT is what's wrong, THAT is why I disapprove of the project. I'm not getting pissy because it's making life easier for others, I generally couldn't care how one makes a project. As long as they don't get carried away into believing that what they've made is better than what it actually is. The project is great, but not so great that it warrants editing wiki pages that are meant to convey official information. That's bad form, it's like advertising cigarettes on a 6 year-old toy, nothing wrong with advertising the cigarettes, but you did it where it did not belong, and now the parents are pissed (It's an analogy, don't take it seriously).

    I have nothing against his work, hell I even supplied something towards it, I was merely commenting that his actions were rather questionable, and that maybe he should consider laying off the self promotion a bit, and concentrate more on the project. I wouldn't randomly shit on the work when I contributed something towards it. I have even defended those who have been trashed by others for silly things (go check my post history), I learnt not to jump on people at around 2010 onwards because it's the wrong way to go about it.

    -----------------------------------------------

    In hindsight, I see no way around this, anything else I may add in conjunction with Sonic Boom or Saxman's actions in relation to Sonic Boom, will not be taken into account, and sections will be taken out of context to justify my opinion incorrectly and twisted to strengthen an opposing opinion against it. It's why I read his response but did not respond excessively, it's a waste of time. In essence, anything I add is unwanted help from Saxman's point of view, and that's fine, it's his thread after all.

    I will say nothing more on the subject towards his relationship with the project, and hope for the best.
     
  9. saxman

    saxman Long live the Saxlight! Member

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    I agree with you that fixing them also has value if you're trying to learn. In my opinion, that's what makes the original disassemblies worth taking a look at.

    Thanks for your support! And if you do have any suggestions or things you might like to see, I'd like to hear them.

    What the hell is wrong with you. I have never begged you to do anything via PM, please stop lying to everyone. Why do I need to repeat this?!



    I'm not going to post everything. I'm only going to post your first seven words of the post you didn't put up:

    "I urge you to change the name..."

    http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/urge?s=t

    verb: beg, push for, encourage

     


    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/urge

    verb: beg, appeal to, exhort, press, prompt, plead, put pressure on, lean on, solicit, goad, implore, enjoin, beseech, pressurize, entreat, twist someone's arm (informal), put the heat on (informal), put the screws on (informal)

     

    If you don't think "begged" accurately characterizes the intent of your post, then say that. But I'm not a liar.



    Yes, and you are missing the obvious takeaway message: the people criticizing the name and/or your actions are doing so because they feel said name/actions eclipse whatever you did with the engine. They don't delve in to take more than a cursory look at the engine: they are pissed off at you in varying degrees, and won't be interested in helping along until you take some action to create some good will. Instead, you seem to be doing your best to dismiss their concerns, belittle them, and piss them off more.


    As for myself, the reason I didn't comment anything about the engine is because I am on the "underwhelmed" camp. The level layout format is interesting, sure, and you used a really clever pointer trick in the Nemesis queue*; but that's about it; there is nothing special in the feature list, and starting from the 2007 disassembly puts it at a considerable disadvantage.

    Even the 32x version is underwhelming: you got all the might of the twin 32-bit SH-2 processors in your hands and you use them to... decompress Kosinski. As you mention, this leads to a modest increase in loading speed; the reason for that is because Kosinski is already fast, even on the 68k. If you really want to use the SH-2s to decompress stuff (and there are far better uses for them), you should use them to decompress Nemesis and Enigma, these are the real time eaters: Kosinski can decompress on the order of hundreds of tiles per frame on the 68k, Nemesis can generally decompress a bit more than 6 (and generally, it decompresses only 3 so that the 68k can do other things).


    * You did miss an opportunity of making an effectively endless Nemesis queue, though, using a completely different approach and without using any more RAM. I will be releasing it soon, for what is worth.



    That's all fair.

    I oversold the 32X thing on Retro, and I think people missed the point as a result. I made a good effort to mention it without overselling it when I posted here. The point is that you can create a 32X ROM. It's not that it now uses the hardware for this one decompression routine that speeds up loading of levels. The purpose is for it to be a starting point for something better.

    This has all pretty much been said before on Retro. And while we have a fundamental disagreement about doing some of the work for people versus educating people on how the work is done, I can understand some of the other things you've brought up.

    And the 2007 disassembly base has many inherited disadvantages. And while the GitHub source has many, many improvements, I don't like the way the community has handled other aspects of it. I think it can be better, so I'm taking a stab at improving the source the way I think it should be. And that's part of what 2.00 will be about. I've already made several improvements, but there's a whole lot more to be done. 

    I may end up modifying Zone Builder (my own unreleased level editor) to handle the level layout instead. I think it may be easier in the end that trying to make a workaround for SonLVL.

    To understand the new format, you have to drop this notion that collision and art are part of the same thing. The Sonic Boom Engine doesn't treat them that way. If you were given 256 art tiles to place, you would need to give them collision properties. It just so happens that you have 256 collision sets to choose from. But collision set 1 doesn't have to match art tile 1, nor does 2 and 2, 3 and 3, and so on. They're unique things now. So it opens the door for new level design tricks like secret passages beyond walls, or making a tile act as a wall instead of a platform you can walk in front of (this would make Emerald Hill Zone easier to design for). And it doesn't require any remapping of existing meta-blocks or the creation of new meta-blocks. It adds to the re-usability factor.
     
  10. MainMemory

    MainMemory Well-Known Member Member

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    It might make more sense to me if you separated chunks into art chunks containing 16x16 blocks and collision chunks that referred to solidity maps directly, eliminating the collision index arrays as well. As it is though, you're asking people to set collision for chunks that deliberately doesn't match the art for that chunk, which is confusing.

    But that again would make it even more impossible for SonLVL to support it.
     
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  11. Spanner

    Spanner The Tool Administrator

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    "if you were really interested in doing anything, you would have by now"

    Could you not apply that to yourself? I mean, I checked your URL link, and I don't think you would make a page that has an edit of yourself with Chaos Hedgie and a dildo or vibrator. And no, I didn't take that domain.

    But if you feel I'm not doing things properly, well consider yourself warned already since you have repeatedly posted private conversations in public places. That should sort it, right?
     
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  12. snkenjoi

    snkenjoi Well-Known Member Member

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    If begged doesn't characterise the intent of my private messages that you are unfairly posting publically without request or warning, then you are a liar for saying it does.

    The dictionary lists /possible/ definitions for words - that doesn't mean that each word literally means each and every definition attached to it.

    I urged you to change the name for your own benefit. I was trying to help you, this is in the same exchange where I say you are free to use it if you want to - this is not the demeanor of a begger.

    I have never begged you to do anything, and trying to argue that I have is pathetic, childish behaviour. I shouldn't even have to defend this.
     
  13. Shockwave

    Shockwave 3 Time Stones Member

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    Just figured that I would leave some quick feedback for this project. I don't feel the need to stick my head into everything else taking place at the moment.

    I do like the core idea. An improved disassembley of any of the games is something I'm open to. The use of the older disassemblies as the base doesn't bother me much at all. I feel like they provide a better starting point because of how untouched a lot of the material is. Yes, it would require a lot of work to bring everything up to date, but I would consider it a better starting place than the GitHub disassemblies. I also don't think implementing bug fixes is a bad thing. There's no problem with having the game in an overall more clean and polished state before one begins modifying it, and even though I did pick up on a lot pertaining to 68K and how everything works while reading some of the bug fix guides, I don't see any harm in them already being included here.

    However, I can't say the same for the other features being included. As a lot of previous posts have pointed out, many of these inclusions end up promoting laziness and keep newcomers from trying to learn how something works on their own. Some argue that people shouldn't have to "reinvent the wheel" every time they want a common feature that they don't know where to start with. I have no problem with people being pointed in the right direction (that's one of the reasons we have the Basic Q&A Thread for, after all), but they should at least try once on their own after that point. I remember a little over a year ago when I first started and I wanted to add the peel out to Sonic's move set. Of course, there's no public resource for such a thing so I was left on my own. After a little searching, I realized that it was just a spindash with a running animation and a frame based delay. I messed around for a couple days and after that, I had it functioning perfectly. That is something really, REALLY small when you look it, but as I proved in the following months, it opened up a lot for me. Personally, I'd love to see the same happen to more people, as opposed to handing every little feature over to them with absolutely minimal effort on their end.
     
  14. Chaotix

    Chaotix Boredom Incarnate Member

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    Okay, there is a lot of drama here so I'm just going to address my own opinion on what is going on.

    First, there's the laziness bit. I got to say, from my own experience of making just one small edit makes you feel good if you ask someone and/or do it yourself. With this, you feel like "Yay... I did it... oh my goddd..." (at least it looks like it), whereas if you did it by yourself, you are like "Woah, I actually did it! Holy crap!", and if you were the first one/did it yourself, the feeling is even greater. Even the smallest change can make you happy, whereas if you already have it from the get-go, well, you just don't feel like you accomplished something other than the art, music, etc. The code is the bit everyone gets confused on, but once people know how to use it, the feeling is fantastic (or you know, read the text right next to some of the coding).

    Secondly, there's an old dissassembly as a base. In my eyes, this is good, as the old dissassemblys (like Xenowhirl's for example) have the most guides made for it. Whilst you could get more info of the other dissassemblies with the IRC or Basic Questions, a guide is more useful (if you can understand what is going on). However, like Clownacy said, not many people can understand it properly.

    And finally, what if people WANT to keep the Spike Bug in? Like Sonic EraZor? Or if they DON'T want Knuckles in the game already? Don't get me wrong, bug fixes are okay, and new features (if done right), but maybe people want an authentic Sonic 1/2/3. Maybe they want to code their own new features. However, I believe most Sonic hackers use the Github dissassembly since it's the most complete. I used the Xenowhirl dissassembly for Sonic & The Debug Curse because that's what Selbi and MainMemory's tips were about.

    These are the reasons why I believe everyone is not wanting to use this engine. It's a great concept, but doing it by yourself, finding and fixing bugs, etc, is a lot more satisfying. I do not have any intentions to try this, although if I'm bored as hell, I'll try it.
     
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  15. Donnie Paradox

    Donnie Paradox SSF1991 Member

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    Everyone else pretty much summed up what I was going to say (minus the name anyway, I could care less what it is called). So I guess all I really can say, if that is alright, is this: I just want to play a good Sonic ROM hack.
     
  16. Irixion

    Irixion Well-Known Member Member

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    So I come here...and I see...this. Holy fuck?

    I like the concept of the Sonic Boom Engine. Unfortunately I like to nitpick and do everything myself if I can so as far as things are right now it's just pretty to look at from a distance. :v
     
  17. EMK-20218

    EMK-20218 The Fuss Maker Member

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    Sincerely I thought on not to join this conversation because the topic of it is is too delicate to treat. But I think that what most involves the problems with the engine is the name. Saxman, couldn't you really have choose any name which is differently from a original Sonic game? ...What's the matter on a simple name and description change? Also, I'm not understanding why to "throw off your hack's source codes" to starting use this one. I think that it has nice changes and interesting engine fixes, but Saxman, why don't you simply change the engine name to something more creative so the people will be less heavy with you. Other than these, the only strange point I see in your posts here is that you seem to be refusing the negative feedback about your source. Seconding what Irixion said above, I also like the concept of the engine. But I think it'd be better appreciate if people do some of these work (such as porting Knuckles) by themselves. The engine is nice, the concept is good, the idea is awesome... But some of the implemented stuff really shouldn't be this source.

    I agree completely with bug fixing, but I'm against doing some of the stuff which other people should do by themselves.
     
  18. Pacca

    Pacca Why succeed when you can profit off of failure? Member

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    I actually have to agree with the issue of the name, when I first saw it, I thought it was related to the hack of the same name, even though the following comments suggest otherwise. Surely, it wouldn't be to difficult a thing to change, especially seeing as it could lead to some really silly confusion as is...
     
  19. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun Visible Member

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    Is it that difficult for it to be just recognized as The Sonic Boom Engine? The name is the least important part of this project, and I think it's hilarious that people are trying to force someone to change the name of their own project. You guys act like 'Sonic Boom' is some brilliant, clever name that hasn't been used before. It's not like he gave it a specifically uniquely used name like 'Megamix Engine', or 'Erazor Engine'. Sonic Boom is the name saxman decided to use for his own work, so we need to just be content with that and actually discuss the work itself.
     
  20. EMK-20218

    EMK-20218 The Fuss Maker Member

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    Ehh... I think you misunderstood a point I tried to show, but I got your point. Anyway, my viewpoint about this engine isn't in fact the name. The name is just a detail which I'd not care in case of I get to use this to make a hack. What matters in the case is the effort applied up into the stuff itself. Now let me go to my viewpoint about the contents of it then.


    The engine is way stabler than most of the ones we know. I just think that it has some great effort. The brand new level format and bug fixes shows it clearly. But I'm thinking about some stuff such as extra characters (Knuckles, in this case specifically) and this is the place which enter my major complaint. Some stuff is good to have in a source code, but why a additional character? I know that Knuckles is in the Sonic 2 & Knuckles, but I think that this is kinda like a "You're too lazy to port? I ported it for you!". I really have doubts if putting Knuckles in a redistributable source code is in fact a good idea. But I'm thinking about the 32X feature too. I do music and I love making music. If supposely I get to use the engine, the first thing I would try is to make music on it. When I think about 32X to make music, I think it'd be better to it at least to have the PWM system implemented. Did I read the main topic and you clearly shown that this feature is planned to be implemented in the future, and I know that the 24-bit colors layer is a very useful feature too. But it wasn't too early for you to have implemented 32X in the source with a lack of such a useful feature? Also... I really think that a redistributable source code with Knuckles implemented in the standalone game is not a good idea, since I think that you would have made a way of boot Sonic 2 & Knuckles with the source so the rom-hacker would try to port it to Sonic 2 Final by himself.


    Another fact is that I think that such a incredible source code need their own editors instead of a bunch of format converters. Just because it's kinda boring to edit then to convert then to compile, then to edit then to convert then to compile (& etc). The engine is in fact brilliant, but I think that it'd be better with proper editors for such a different data format.
     
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