Sonic 1 Jumpdash

Discussion in 'Tutorials Archive' started by Selbi, Mar 22, 2009.

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  1. bareirito

    bareirito Well-Known Member Member

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    Agreed with CarrascoZX0, do you remember that SuperSonic guide? Hanoch end up removing it because every hack had it. And for preventing of making SuperSonic boring he deleted that. I was going to use it for WillJ's hack thought, but now I'm more clever and I will try to figure out for myself.
     
  2. Shadow Fire

    Shadow Fire Well-Known Member Member

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    Mine doesn't. [​IMG]


    I personally find Super Sonic to make things way too easy. If I did a Super Sonic thing, I'd make it so that he'd be with the final boss, and that the final boss could hurt Sonic, ala Unleashed.
     
  3. Selbi

    Selbi The Euphonic Mess Member

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    I understand your problems, but in a point I have to disagree: If you think, hacks will become boring, don't use it. Not that many people will use it, so it's not really a problem. Also, why shouldn't people use my code? I mean, why should they create a similar code again, just to say "It's my code"? I will not take it back, since I'm learing with it (every day I'm updating it and that makes my ASM knowledge growing fast.)
     
  4. Hanoch

    Hanoch Well-Known Member Member

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    If you want to make your asm knowledge grow fast, create a code you think is good, go to sonic retro's IRC channel (or ssrg's) and release the ROM in there and ask them for feedback.
     
  5. c1owd

    c1owd Previously 'CarrascoZX0' Member

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    I think he's not suppose to be near Retro anymore... :)
     
  6. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo Well-Known Member Member

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    Why should ROM hacking help be so ephemeral that you have to shove your work in front of a group of people to improve your skill? Why are you trying to keep it like an exclusive club? We find stuff out, we share it, we don't have to hoard it to "keep hacks interesting" (which is, if you'll excuse my french, a load of bollocks). Stop trying to get this surpressed. So what if Jumpdash is suddenly in every hack? People will know that it's become a simple feature and hackers will have to do more to impress people. Are you afraid of something challenging your cushy arrangement where you can impress people with a few hoarded lines of assembly?


    It's about time we rose out of such shortsighted, unenlightened and ultimately unprogressive thinking.
     
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  7. Tweaker

    Tweaker OI! MIRON! Member

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    No.

    The only "unprogressive thinking" are the things you continuously attempt to preach and impose, despite several proven instances of everything you're saying being shot into the dust. You're thinking optimistically, certainly--and, indeed, in any other community that might work out--but you're not thinking realistically. If you do not give someone incentive to work of their own accord, then they will not work of their own accord. A hack should not be something that you can just pick and choose from pre-generated materials, slap together, and call "creative genius"--it's supposed to be something that shines with the creator's true effort and potential. You want to make every hack the work of an entire community, which completely defeats the point of a personal project.


    Have you seen the Super Mario World hacking scene? Literally everything is available for use by everyone, including graphics sets, music, ASM blocks--you name it. I have yet to play an original Super Mario World hack that I actually enjoy, and that feels like it has a single degree of originality outside of the hacks made by the people who put all the work into making the technological breakthroughs for the game. It's absolutely pathetic, and there is so much more potential out there that has been totally wasted away, because people can simply slap together materials without giving a damn. Would you believe that they even have utilities that forcefully unlock other peoples' hacks so the materials can be stolen?


    Every time I see you preach this crap it seriously irks me. You--the maintainer of a Sonic hacking website--have never actually made a true ROM hack of your own. You have absolutely no idea what it's like, clearly, to create something of your own skill, ability, and creative mind just to see cheap imitations prevalent about and accepted as "good enough" by the general populous, leaving the true creative works overshadowed and left in the dust. You have no idea how irritating it is to see the ego on complete fucking idiots because their hacks have all these "features" that they implemented just by following a step by step copy paste guide that taught them absolutely nothing on their own. You have no idea what it's like to have so much hope in a group of people to continiously disappointed by the same shit being rehashed over and over again.


    It's easy for you to say "just ignore them!" or "It doesn't matter in the long run!" because you have no fucking clue what it's like to be in the position of someone who is the victim of this kind of utter garbage, but the real truth of the situation is that it does matter, and it matters even more when people like you go around telling people that it doesn't. That is fucking regressive thinking.


    I'm sure you'll continue to bring up your half-assed points and impose it with your status, but I will continue to tear apart every single one of them. I will not stand by and let you impair the future of this community just because you think that you're "right." Hell no.
     
  8. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo Well-Known Member Member

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    Of course they can work of their own accord, I'm not forcing anyone to release all their code. I'm just against people trying to stop others from doing so.

    Have you seen the Sonic hacking scene, where there are a small number of hacks that are truely original? We have the same problem if you hadn't noticed, except with palettes. These people who start out using palettes then progress onto better things, instead they will start with perhaps a few blocks of premade graphics, code, etc. and then progress even higher.

    Well thats where of course the community has to play a role in ensuring stolen materials aren't permitted. We managed it with Project 255 didn't we?

    Of course it does, it goes completely against your views.

    Hello there!

    So?

    *points at Music Composition Degree*


    Trust me I know. Sure I'm not an expert ROM hacker but I talk to ROM hackers on a daily basis and am familiar with similar issues in the music world. See chord progression I V VI IV for more details =P


    It saddens me that you, as many people who believe they are "qualified" do, have fallen into the trap of believing your opinions are more valid than anyone elses.

    I don't think that will happen. In fact I will make sure it doesn't.

    Well yes that is a problem, but if everyone is informed of what the guides are then people will know what is guide followed and what is original.

    Who's the victim? You're making it sound like people are copying your stuff and taking credit, when we're just talking about a few things to get people started on the ropes.

    For the last god damn time I'm not trying to change the direction of the community as a whole! Like I say here, I want SSRG to be a bubble.


    It's an experiment really. I don't know if my views are right, but I want to try something different from the old ways of doing things. I have to say I do find your posts sort of amusing in a strange way (not to say I don't take them seriously mind you), the sheer amount of dramatic emphasis placed in things, it's just disproportionate to the real issue, which is a couple of lines of code.


    Anyone would think sharing assembly is illegal =P


    edit: Also, doesn't Sonic Retro host SCAA, surely premade graphics are no better than premade assembly?
     
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  9. voice

    voice Well-Known Member Member

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    Wow. Apparently showing people how to do something has become a crime? :) How can people become creative and innovative if there are people going around trying to keep others from learning? No, I don't make hacks, but I am a web developer and more than once I've shown people the source code for my projects, hell have a gander at this!


    PS: Lets see who can figure out what my code does.
     
  10. Cinossu

    Cinossu A blend of secret herbs and spices Member

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    I'm sorry, but sharing ASM knowledge is one thing, sharing complete code is another. I see it like teaching; you can show the process or you can just give the answers straight away. Give out a step-by-step tutorial of how to make a move, and how it works, sure. But just slapping the code up? Nothx.

    I'd rather them "progress higher" by starting on the premade graphics alone, if at all. Learning how to add in your own graphics, palettes, etc, is good preparation for editing an assembly in further detail. Everyone who was around and hacking in the times before disassemblies should agree with this.

    Sorry, but never going to happen. There's always going to be people to boost those people's egos further. As I said, I'd rather step-by-step guides than completed code for this reason too. At least their egos can be boosted with a little bit of reason. :p

    "A couple of lines of code" is rubbish. You aren't a coder, so "a couple of lines of code" means anywhere from 2 lines to 200. :x Yes, it's discriminatory what I've said, but then so is yours. :U

    Considering what it's for, it basically is. :p

    They aren't, I'm against SCAA too. :p and Retro doesn't host it, AFAIK.


    EDIT:

    mmm, nice bit of PHP there. :p Opens an SHOUTcast server's status XML, given the address and ports, and posts up the data in the form of listeners, current song data, etc. Also says is the server is broadcasting or not.
     
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  11. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo Well-Known Member Member

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    Hmm I have to say I prefer your argument a lot more Cinossu (seems a bit more down to earth!). I can see your point about the teaching issue, but still, disallowing people to share code still doesn't sit well with me. I am a coder to an extent, though I'm not so experianced with lower level languages, but you are right to call me out on trivialising the issue.


    I'm not sure exactly what to do yet though, I'm just thinking.
     
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  12. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Member

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    "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for life."


    This is the very same situation. The only thing you teach by releasing blocks of asm code like this is how to copy and paste without paying any attention to how the code works. A real guide on asm would go into detail on how the commands work, the parameters required and learning about data and address registers. That would be beneficial to the community, this is not. This is just the lazy mans way out of taking the time to actually learn the art of coding.


    The art of coding, just like in music composition, is about knowing and applying technical knowledge to create something unique, or at least in the creators own style, rather than just rehashing what someone has already done and passing it off as a great technical feat. As usual, everyone wants to be spoon fed, and as long as that goes on, originality will go right out the window over time.
     
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  13. Qjimbo

    Qjimbo Well-Known Member Member

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    You guys are right, and I think it does have a lot to do with how we approach hacking. Compared to say, mods for unreal tournament or something, Sonic hacks aren't about interchangable pieces, and are more a creative art form. I suppose, sticking to the music-based metaphor, what I'm suggesting is allowing people a sort of Dance eJay type thing, whereas currently we have composers. A piece of music made of samples and loops can be creative in it's own sence, such as Hip Hop, but I guess with hacking, a hack made of pieces would come across as cheap and giving the creator a false sense of accomplishment, like what Tweaker was saying earlier.


    Perhaps I do need to be grounded a little more, but how to deal with the situation? Should be have more stringent requirements for guides requiring a strict code of conduct on how much can be "given away" per guide? It all feels very controlling, but at the same time, would protect hacking.
     
  14. voice

    voice Well-Known Member Member

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    While I agree with going into more detail about what each ASM function does, I really don't see Selbi's post as being any different than the PHP examples coders often leave in the comments section on php.net's function reference site and I don't think its going to ruin anything. If you want to see what I'm talking about go here and take a look.
     
  15. roxahris

    roxahris Active Member Member

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    I shall state my opinion in this paraphrasement I title:

     
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  16. Gen

    Gen Newcomer Trialist

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    You know, usually I don't flock to whatever sonic community, but I'll make a special case here. Lets think for moment, we're arguing about someone who posted their code for the public eye.


    Oh dear god what ever shall we do!?!????? Oh! What the code does is cool, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it'll become lame eventually by poeple copying and pasting it into their own hacks!! Big deal. Look at projects that revolve around public code that demonstrates functionality.


    NeHe's OpenGL tutorials are a prime example. They release their code, document what it does, how each process works, and people use it as a starting point to write their own OpenGL renderers. Are they bad for doing this? Do people lose the incentive to actually work on their own code?


    No, and only if they don't want to make something better. They're meant to help people get started with writing 3D renderers using the OpenGL API. Who cares if whoever ends up using them ends up basing all of their work off of a bunch of tutorials and gains an ego? Dealing with egotists is easy, especially when you can point out exactly what they copied their code from, thus knocking them down a notch until they copy more code from elsewhere, or finally grow the balls to write their own, and possibly even gain some respect in doing so.


    I find it funny that someone's trying to contribute to the community, but instead of being thanked and having it left at that, they're being attacked. So much for this "contributing" thing eh?
     
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  17. Tweaker

    Tweaker OI! MIRON! Member

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    I notice that a lot of people refer to the software development community as an example of this sort of system "working." What you're completely ignoring, of course, is the difference between being a programmer and being a ROM hacker; the effort involved in doing the two things are not only drastically different, but the two things are not mutually exclusive in that programming from scratch will inevitability be just that--programming from scratch. It is in this sense that the free distribution and sharing of source code is ideal, appropriate, and works.


    In a practice where the goal is to modify an existing program, however, copy and paste becomes a dangerous, easily--and commonly--abused tactic that destroys the core point of ROM hacking in the first place--individual creative expression. Not only that, you're ignoring that the argument isn't even about sharing code to be used as an example to build off further into something bigger--it's about the code to fully developed features being posted freely in a manner that blatantly encourages copying and pasting it into a hack verbatim. It doesn't teach them anything, it spoils the quality of hacks everywhere, and it's encouraged. I know this is what will happen because I've seen it happen.


    Something interesting I've noticed is that the only people--or at least an overwhelming majority of them--who are trying to make the argument for the copy/paste bullshit are the people who have never made a Sonic ROM hack. You may say this doesn't matter, but I disagree--there seems to be a drastic difference in perspective from people who actually understand what it's like to be in the active, creationist side of the hacking scene in comparison to the one that just plays and observes the works people come out with. It's as if people don't comprehend the effort, ability, and skill involved in the practice, and blindly preach that everyone should have everything as if it doesn't matter. Would you really like it if every professional video game that came out these days all had the same exact features built from the same exact code snippets? I hardly think that would be fun or appealing.


    My main point, though--Open Source software development and ROM hacking are not two things that can be directly related in an argument for the support of "open source" in the Sonic community, if only because of the sheer ignorance on the part of anyone who proposes that against how the Sonic community works in general.
     
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  18. Entia

    Entia FUCK Member

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    Sup, person who's made a Sonic ROM hack here and doesn't care if people want to share source code for features that are remade from other Sonic games that pretty much everyone will want to have in their hack anyway.


    If it's something people want so badly, why program the same thing 9001 times in 9001 different ways.


    Another thing, isn't it basically copy/paste bullshit to be using Sonic source code at all? Seeing as Sonic Team made it, I guess no one cares about Sonic Team though. The way I see it, the whole "community" is based around copy/paste bullshit since it's all about using someone else's code for your ROM hack.

    That's how games already are though, same shit, different name, and it all sucks ass. People still buy the latest revision to pogaymans red, generic mario 1 clone, and generic shootayn gaym regardless of that fact.


    And honestly, if hoarding code is so god damn important why even have a "community"?


    Lol I'm involving my self with generic Sonic "community" drama, srsly though people can post their own damn code if they want, no one can stop them.


    I'd also make a comment about winfags and proprietary code, but I see this thread already has enough generic Sonic "community" drama and doesn't need an OS war too.


    bbl lurking. looking for loli hentai.
     
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  19. roxahris

    roxahris Active Member Member

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    Why do you keep grouping everything together? There's a big difference between modifications that are nice to have (Version 2 background deformations), ones that people may feel are necessary (Spike behavior modification), and ones that significantly change the way you play the game (This, for example).


    Most Sonic 1 hacks have the spindash. Sure, they may change it up a bit (Improvised peel-outs, and the like), but most hacks have a spindash because, it seems, all the later Sonic games do. A jump-dash? In the 3D games, yes. But do you really think that everyone, all the people that see "spindash in Sonic 1" and think "Yay, awesome! I'll use this in my hack!" are going to see things like the jump-dash, and think the same way? From what I know - no.


    As I showed in that paraphrasement before, it seems that nobody is actually thinking of what really make up a good hack - layouts. "SPINDASH AND JUMPDASH AND EVERYTHING IN GUIDES SAME CODE IS AUTOMATIC HORRIBLE HACK GENERIC PIECE OF SHIT LOSS OF CREATIVITY ETCETRA" is pretty much the collective argument against guides like these. But if all you look at is what a hack has that everything else has, then you won't see the actual bits of creativity. What if someone made a hack with new palettes, some art from the SCAA, music taken from one of those music sharing threads, features and code from the various guides, etcetra... and then, shockingly enough, several new layouts, each with a bit of original art and stuff inside them. Would that be a bad hack? Would that be an uncreative hack? What if a hack contained only new artwork, that looked nice enough and different enough to make the whole game feel changed? Would that be a bad hack?


    I suppose it's really a matter of quality over quantity in the end; lots of neat assembly hacks from guides and things from other people, or just one or two special things that are well done and make a hack shine? It's really a matter of opinion.
     
  20. Gen

    Gen Newcomer Trialist

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    Protip: 68k ASM is still considered to be a programming language, albeit a very low level one. See, what you're doing, ROM Hacking, is not that different from programming. Programming from scratch just means HEY I MADE THIS ALL BY MY SELF. Modifying something like, say, a game engine, is still considered programming. ROM Hacking, see: previous sentence, only apply that to a decompiled game and its assets.

    So? If you want to express your creativity, do it on your own. Add something new to it, or just do it differently. You want express your creativity in your own manner? Okay then, don't copy someone else's code, hell, don't even use the same sprites, make new ones, and make entirely new level layouts and level assets. Want to be some guy that's just trying to learn from other people's code until you can write your own to the point that you feel you can release it? Then look over the code, test the code, modify the code, see the results of your modification, rewrite the code, add your own functions to the code, write your own code, write your own functionality, etc. Want to be some blow joe that releases the same shit as everyone else using the same code copied and pasted from the same place as everyone else? Have fun with that.


    There will always be people who copies and pastes code into their hack, program, or what the hell ever just so they can spend as little time as possible working on it. This happens with the open source communities, communities that use proprietary code licenses (communities that revolve around languages such as Dark Basic Pro are notorious for it), and so on. It's a risk that anyone takes regardless of the community, the Sonic ROM hacking communities included.

    Yeah, I was more or less pointing out "hey! we can learn from this documented snippet of code and possibly improve upon it or do it our own way now that we know how this person does it!". Not endorsing "lol copy paste release the hack!". Also, as Emily said, it's not like game development isn't like that as it is. Hell, my own superiors want games that mimic gameplay from other games. I've been in meetings that go like "Oooh! I really like how this game did it, how can we do it as well without seeming like we copied it directly?".

    Okay then, so sharing information on how to "do" something in 68k ASM for a sonic game, WITH documentation on how it works, cannot be related to software development of any kind. What about game development? Or more specifically, video game development? In which software development is a part of said process? You still have to come up with routines that makes Fuckstick McDogwaffle jump, shoot, and stick it in her pooper.


    EDIT: Also, funnier yet, we're in the "Sourcecode Exchange" forum. And OMG HOW DARE YOU RELEASE A GUIDE INCLUDING SOURCE ON HOW TO DO A JUMP DASH IN A SONIC GAME. That's funny.


    EDIT2: Also, while we're at it, why doesn't someone flame him in the topic just under this one? I mean he obviously released code on modifying Sonic 1's spike behaviour.
     
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