Sonic Delta 40Mb Is Pretty Sick

Discussion in 'Discussion & Q&A' started by ProjectFM, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. ProjectFM

    ProjectFM Optimistic and self-dependent Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Portland, Maine


    https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/sonic-delta-40mb.39203/

    I just found about this through Razor & Zenon's video. It's Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 Delta ported over to Sonic 3K, totaling about 35 zones more or less, plus the additional multiplayer Sonic 3 levels. I had always seen Sonic 2 Delta as Sonic 2 Long Version with worse levels, but this blows Sonic 2 Long Version out of the water!
     
  2. penPhobic

    penPhobic The Magician Hedgehog Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Basement
    I still have no idea how can actually put three Sonic games' levels in one ROM. It's like a magic. Too bad, the cut zones from Sonic 2 have not altered as there's no plans for this.
     
  3. Ralakimus

    Ralakimus People suck Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,042
    Location:
    Hell
    @penPhobic It uses the one SEGA mapper (aka "SSFII mapper") that allows you to bankswitch ROM data, so that you can pick and choose sections from a larger ROM to be visible within the 4 MB range.
     
    Crimson Neo, ProjectFM and penPhobic like this.
  4. nineko

    nineko I am the Holy Cat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,784
    Location:
    italy
    I, too, wanted to record a video of this hack, but it's still quite buggy from what I read on Retro, so I didn't even try it yet, is it stable enough after all? I know that "final" is a huge word when it comes to hacking, but I wouldn't want to record a video of a version which is going to be obsoleted soon...
     
    kenny0989 and ProjectFM like this.
  5. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo I changed a lot. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    493
    Location:
    Where I didn't wanted to be.
    He literally released a new build minutes ago, lol.
     
    ProjectFM likes this.
  6. nineko

    nineko I am the Holy Cat Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,784
    Location:
    italy
    Yeah, I saw, it turns out that my guess was right, I'll just wait a bit more before I try it.
     
    Crimson Neo likes this.
  7. Ravenfreak

    Ravenfreak Sucks at sprite art. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Location:
    O'Fallon, MO
    This has to be the only hack that's been in development for decades now. xD Serious though, it's nice seeing Esrael continue to improve the hack. I have a older build downloaded on my computer, but I'm still waiting for a more stable release to play it on real hardware. (Because I had a issue with Labyrinth Zone crashing a few times even after using a save state. I can't remember which revision I have downloaded though... :V)
     
    ProjectFM likes this.
  8. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    998
    Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'm actually finding this pretty underwhelming. The use of the 5MB ROM mapper and the combining of the games is great from a technical standpoint sure, but the rest of it? I'm still seeing the same Winter Hill Zone from years back with the same Hill Top Zone background with a fairly shit palette applied to it, and the same Genocide City zone which is just a mash up of Chemical Plant and Oil Ocean with another questionable palette and level design. We've had concept art for the latter since then, so why hasn't there been some art made to reflect what the zone was planned to look like, if the idea is to keep things in line with the betas?

    I think the comment about it "blowing Sonic 2 Long Version out of the water" is doing Sonic Hachelle-Bee a huge disservice, as he actually went to great lengths to make his beta zone recreations feel fresh and original, in giving Genocide City a completely new design not based on any existing Sonic art and by combining the Desert and Winter themes into a single zone with on the fly art and palette swapping, all accomplished via hex. That's not to mention his Wood Zone recreation which I had the privilege of playtesting, which I don't think was ever actually released but also featured what I believe was the only complete and not buggy version of the zone, complete with more on the fly art and background switching.

    Having watched that video, this hack still seems to be pretty damn buggy, the level order really makes no sense at all for the Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 levels, there's a lack of deformation in some levels, palette issues and the whole thing just feels completely unpolished. I'd much rather have seen a release of Sonic 2 Delta with all the problems it had addressed and the beta zones reworked and brought up to modern standards than see Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles tacked on for the sake of it. It's been proven in the community many times, and MarkeyJester has even proven it himself with mutiple hacks, quality ranks higher than quantity. There's no point having 35 zones or whatever this hack has, if the quality isn't there. I'd much rather have half of that polished up to a high standard than all those zones and not enjoy them.
     
  9. AURORA☆FIELDS

    AURORA☆FIELDS the cute one here Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Nat's lap
    I am not sure on the technical details, but I suspect its the kind of thing where the games are still in separate engines. Might I add, Sonic 4 in 1 did that already a few years back, so if that's the case - this isn't really even a new achievement. I'm yet to look any deeper into it but I agree with StephenUK here.
     
    ProjectFM and Kurk like this.
  10. penPhobic

    penPhobic The Magician Hedgehog Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Basement
    So the solution is remove both Sonic 1 and 3 Levels? That is Esrael's preference, I doubt it will only be Sonic 2 Beta Zones if it was called Sonic 2 Delta previously.
     
  11. Ralakimus

    Ralakimus People suck Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,042
    Location:
    Hell
    No, it's just that Esrael should have focused on the bugs and design flaws first before shoving in Sonic 1 and 3K levels. The novelty is nice and all, but it's still quite a bugfest from what I've gathered, even after several updates.
     
  12. penPhobic

    penPhobic The Magician Hedgehog Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2016
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Basement
    That would be take months or a year to fix these bugs. Esrael is not always active 24/7.
     
  13. Ralakimus

    Ralakimus People suck Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,042
    Location:
    Hell
    There's no rush to meet a deadline or any major demands. Now, I dunno what his testing is like or if he can get a group of people to help playtest, but IMO, it was not ready for release.
     
    Ozaleto, ProjectFM and Crimson Neo like this.
  14. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    998
    You do realise this is a hack that has been in the works for around 19 years, right? Also, I didn't realise you were the keeper of his schedule and knew how much time he spends working on anything. Just because he doesn't actively post a lot, that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't spend time working on things.

    If it takes months to fix things up, then that's what it takes. I'd rather it takes months or years to release something polished and with original content to fill in the beta level slots and bring them up to standards based on the concept designs and information we now have than play through what has just been released.

    Call it personal preference if you want, but outside of the technical side of merging the games, there's just nothing really all that great about this at all. If this was released as three separate hacks of Sonic 1, 2 and 3K, you wouldn't be even remotely as bothered about it.
     
    Ozaleto, Stardust, ProjectFM and 2 others like this.
  15. LazloPsylus

    LazloPsylus A Certain Scientific Railgun The Railgun

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    Location:
    Academy City
    Delta's an icon of legacy, and a point of hacking history that will forever leave its mark on Sonic hacking.

    That being said, I feel like, now in 2020, there's better ways to achieve stuffing S1-S3K plus prototype stages into one game. It's pretty neat, don't get me wrong, but at this point, it's really showing its age.

    The amount of bugs really makes me think this should not have been released when it was. It feels like it's missing a necessary layer of testing and polishing, and without that, it strongly feels flat. And for something with as much of a legacy as it does, the standards and expectations to meet are that much higher. It's not *bad*, but for something with such a legend built up around it and such a history, it's underwhelming. I understand why, but this is 2020, and its age combined with what we can do now do not do it any favors.

    It's a nifty historic novelty, but I'm not sure if it holds up as well in 2020 as it did in 2001. That being said, hope it can prove me wrong and evolve still to something that stands out on its own.
     
    Ozaleto, Ravenfreak, Stardust and 5 others like this.
  16. Spanner

    Spanner The Tool Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,435
    Plus I don't think Esrael would be including a great fanfic to unlock in Delta...
     
  17. AURORA☆FIELDS

    AURORA☆FIELDS the cute one here Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    721
    Location:
    Nat's lap
    Hey he can always call to me for help!
     
    Ravenfreak and AkumaYin like this.
  18. Stardust

    Stardust [screams in cat] Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    In your closet.
    I honestly agree with what some people are saying here. Delta is very buggy and it does feel like it was rushed when first released. And even without the bugs, there's still some issues that I feel that needs to be addressed, like the lost levels, for example. There were points in these levels that I felt like I wasn't given a fair chance to see what's coming in one way or another. Whether it was taking a spring and falling straight into spikes in Sand Shower, or running into a badnik that appeared out of nowhere in Wood Zone. I honestly prefer Long Version's take on the lost levels over Delta's due to the poor level design. The hack's been around for a while, but it's take on the lost levels are starting to show their age and I think they're due for a much needed update. Even if it was just fixing the level design.
     
    kenny0989, AsuharaMoon and ProjectFM like this.
  19. ProjectFM

    ProjectFM Optimistic and self-dependent Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Portland, Maine
    Huh, I didn't know Long Version's superiority was such a common opinion here. I thought it would be a controversial statement, and I honestly that "blows it out of the water bit" because I didn't want that statement to become the focus of the topic. I tried Delta beforehand and stopped it at Wood Zone when the level design got too confusing and un-Sonic-like. I still have yet to play the new Sonic 2 Delta, but I'm a type of guy who really appreciates when things are compiled together to create a massive experience. I often dream of the ultimate music playlist, for example, in which a ton of very different songs can be compiled together to create something bigger than the sum of it's parts. Just the idea of a pretty much endless Sonic hack sounds really cool to me. In reality though, execution is more important than anything, so I'll really have to take a deeper dive to see if the flaws are detrimental enough to the experience.

    Edit: The first two zones have no apparent issues. Winter Hill really lacks polish. There is one 45 degree slope in particular in which the characters don't tilt and it doesn't affect their x velocities while they suddenly have a y velocity, which makes it look really weird. Also, there are just no enemies, and the shield is suddenly only going at half the frame rate. Then Wood has even more collision issues. Labyrinth Zone gets pretty laggy even though Sonic 3K's engine has a bunch of optimizations that you'd think would make it less laggy than the original game. Plus, the waterfalls are pretty broken, and one at the beginning of act 2 pushes you upward rather than downward.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
    Crimson Neo likes this.
  20. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo I changed a lot. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    493
    Location:
    Where I didn't wanted to be.
    I honestly prefer Sonic the Lost Worlds (the ROM hack) over both Sonic 2 Long Version and Delta. The use of the scrapped levels were more creative and unique for me.