Sonic the Hedgehog Hacking Contest 2017

Discussion in 'Discussion & Q&A' started by Ayla, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester !%#@ Member

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    I understand entirely, and I'm not anticipating the rule to be changed indefinitely, I am merely throwing the suggestion out there (in an aggressive way of course, that's the only way to get anyone's attention d=).

    I mean, if you don't want to risk it for the next contest, I'll understand, I know you guys have had trouble with the past couple of contests. It's a thing to contemplate though...

    I'm sorry, I was going to throw out more and more and more engine changes after those three, until the entire engine in this hypothetical situation was 100% changed, and even surpassed Vladikcomper's homebrew, just to get my point through, but that list would have been huge, and my post was rather big as it is.

    I honestly thought that stopping at 3 would have given you the hint of where I was going, but you clearly didn't pick up on it and thought I was stopping at 3, it seems everyone picked up on it but you. Would you like me to put "etc" on the end next time for clarity? >=(
     
  2. Clownacy

    Clownacy UP - ON - CPU Staff

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    Ruuuuuude :-(

    But yes, an 'etc' would have made it clearer.
     
  3. FireRat

    FireRat "The grand imitator..." Member

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    Just dropping my weak points on here,
    Hack vs Homebrew on Itself, I thought it is the "Sonic Hacking Contest", than the "Sonic Creation Contest".

    Considering any submission can get to the 1º/2º/3º place, but some other trophies are specific to individual platforms, be 3D, 8-bit, etc, would not it be fair to have also specific trophies for homebrew submissions?
    I mean, for instance, (not only for me) I find it is quite obvious that a homebrew entry will have higher if not definitive chances of winning the 11000101 than a hack entry.

    EDIT: This post explain my thoughts even better than myself: http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36273&st=0&p=878903&#entry878903
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  4. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat The Holy Cat Jr. Member

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    If homebrews can be considered, then fan games can be in too? I mean, it's still sort of a homebrew but for pc, eh?
     
  5. TheStoneBanana

    TheStoneBanana The Bananaman Member

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    Going back to what can and can't be considered a hack, it comes down to the old 'ship of Theseus' paradox. It's basically, "If you replace the parts of a ship one by one until it is completely made of replaced parts, is it still the original ship?" The key is that it is a paradox, and finding a definite answer is not clear. We can argue all day about where to draw a line, but I don't think any agreeable resolution can ever come.
    SO, with all of that said, I think the only logical conclusion is to bend the rules to allow for homebrew entries. Sure, they would possibly have the technical upper hand as @FireRat is suggesting, but making new trophies is no big deal.
     
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  6. Xeal

    Xeal The Nuke Retired Staff

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    @MrCat Totally. Might as well combine SHC and SAGE if you're going that route....

    This is the Sonic Hacking Contest, not the Sonic Homebrew Contest. If you make what is essentially a homebrew of a Sonic game then it should be left in the homebrew contest.
    We need guidelines as to how much of the sonic engine can be replaced with someones own work before it is considered a homebrew.
    List all the aspects of the Sonic engine (sound driver, object manager, etc). If 50% of the things listed are replaced in someones work, then I say it's fine. Anything above 50% should be considered a homebrew with apsects of the Sonic engine tacked on.

    That's just my thoughts on how to solve this problem.
     
  7. Selbi

    Selbi Plug in, baby. Retired Staff

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    Heck, might even go that far and give a real-life example of exactly that phenomenon. The human's body's cells constantly die and get renewed, to the point where seven years from this exact moment on I will, quite literally, be a completely different person. Does that mean that I don't qualify as the person that I used to be?

    That being said, the same goes for homebrew and hacks in my eyes, only that the approach is wrong in my opinion. Logically speaking, it doesn't matter for the end result whether you started off fresh and built towards something (homebrew) or if you had a working starting point and piece by piece replaced parts (hack). However, in practicality that is never going to happen unless you deliberately want to aim for that and try to prove some arbitrary standpoint to justify something.

    To me, it's not what the product actually is in its final state but the way you progressed to reach that point. vladikcomper's hack, as an often-mentioned example here, was clearly meant to be a homebrew game from the very first moment. It just so happens that vlad also decided to throw in some pre-made Sonic assets. That does not make the intention of creating a homebrew game any less genuine, however.

    The other way around is just as much. You base your hack off of an existing game's source code with the clear intention to build on top of that, and you can replace as much as possible, but you still made a hack. We know Sonic Boom. We know how groundbreaking different it was; to quote snkenjoi from the top of my memory, "There's almost no Sonic left in the source code". And yet we can all truly agree that it's still a hack, because that's what it was meant to be.

    Wrapping this all up with a logical conclusion to Markey's original point, throwing in my opinion, I don't fancy the idea of throwing homebrew and hack in the same pool because they are inherently different approaches to a story. Remember, we want to make and enjoy cool shit here, but it's just not a fair competition at all when you throw two entirely different categories into the same pool. Adding more trophies would "fix" the problem, but it also adds clutter. To me SHC2017 would be an uplifting experience with the way it's currently going, because we can have a condensed set of quality Sonic hacks and hacks only to get mapped to an equality condensed amount of trophies.
     
  8. FохConED

    FохConED Join to Digital Resistance! Member

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    I think that it is better to act in this way - accept only hombrews as Sonic games, and created only
    on Sega MD/CD/32X.
     
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  9. Misinko

    Misinko If you need to shoot me, I won't complain! Staff

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    Then that excludes people who make homebrews for the Dreamcast, or the NES, or the Neo Geo that are also Sonic themed, and that's gonna lead to a heaping mess of complaining and whining. You either accept all homebrews or you don't, just like how hacks for any game for any system are accepted into the contest.
     
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  10. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat The Holy Cat Jr. Member

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    Maybe we can allow them but only sonic-themed and have a restricted amount of trophies for them?
    For example, art and music can be judged and technical aspects can't.


    Or perhaps allow 'em for Expo so it will get recognition yet there will be no "unfairness" debate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  11. Natsumi

    Natsumi Markey's Member

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    Well it'd be unfair if I can only submit it to the expo.
     
  12. ProjectFM

    ProjectFM Optimistic and self-dependent Member

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    How about this: Similar to what Selbi said, if a project starts out as an unmodified Sonic game or a hack of a Sonic game (MarkeyJester's Project 128 disassembly, for example), it's a hack. If it starts from scratch, it's a homebrew. There may be exceptions but this can be used for most projects.
     
  13. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Administrator

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    Basically, this video sums up that paradox perfectly.

    To throw my two cents in, I don't see a problem allowing homebrew in, on the condition that it is sonic based. After all, this is the Sonic Hacking Contest, not the Any Game You Like Hacking Contest. In the future, maybe it can be branched out to have another contest for all non-Sonic related hacks and homebrew, but I don't see that being a thing any time soon.

    To break it down, submissions would either have to be based on the Sonic engine, but can contain new characters and such, or be a completely new engine but Sonic themed, so that Sonic is maintained in one form or another. An entirely new game and engine that has no relevance to Sonic wouldn't be right in a Sonic based contest.
     
  14. Novedicus

    Novedicus Some say that Heaven is Hell Member

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    Asking for a friend here...

    Can a hack of a non-Sonic game be sumbitted if it's Sonic related? (i.e. Sonic Adventure 64, a hack of Mario 64)
     
  15. Natsumi

    Natsumi Markey's Member

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    I would make a case for what Stephen said; I would also allow games that are heavily influenced by Sonic games, but not necessarily Sonic. So things like Freedom Planet, if they can adequately explain HOW it is Sonic-based, would also be allowed. Of course, its not just so easy to go and do it, so that's why I am only throwing it in as an idea to be thought about.
     
  16. LordXernom

    LordXernom Well-Known Member Member

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    I think good advertisement of SHC Homebrew Contest would be good. Goal of that would be make more people want to make solid homebrew entries like trailer or something. We have too little amount of homebrew makers to start a competition. This is my opinion, so you can disagree. I'm open for arguing.
     
  17. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic Also known as RHS Retired Staff

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    We want to debate, not argue (yes, there is a difference, look it up).


    Just a suggestion, but maybe a poll could be initiated? I know it's up to the judges, but seeming as Spanner bought it to Sonic Retro's attention for discussion, a poll would be easier to define everyone's stance on the subject.
     
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  18. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat The Holy Cat Jr. Member

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    Speaking of polls, wasn't that also in evaluations? Didn't everyone say no, going by how it wasn't included in the rules?
     
  19. Selbi

    Selbi Plug in, baby. Retired Staff

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    This could be just me, but I think having a poll now would completely miss the point of having it in the evaluations, as MrCat already put it. Unless the outcome was indeed split equally between yes and no, we shouldn't need another poll.
     
  20. LordXernom

    LordXernom Well-Known Member Member

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    Ladies and Gentleman. I have one question - why in Tails Channel's final trophy results for Genocide City Trophy there's no Tails Adventures For Über Players?

    [​IMG]

    Genocide City Trophy on SHC 2016 site looks different:

    [​IMG]

    If you would ask, why I didn't check Tails Channel's results month ago, it's because I didn't watched Tails Channel, because of the lack of Matt's voice.

    And after seeing that Tails Adventure LX Trophy thumbnail I had an odd feeling I was a target of Genocide City Trophy... *runs!*