Sonic 1 Jumpdash

Pay attention to the part I highlighted in particular. This is exactly the problem, in no way does a copied chunk of code detail how the processes work. It tells people what it does, but I bet if you asked a few people exactly how the result camer about, they really couldn't tell you. In that case, they wouldn't be using it as a starting point to write their own code and stuff, coz they wouldn't be any wiser as to how the language and it's commands work.

 

I think you misread Gen;

I think these two are meant to be read together - as in, documenting the code, which tells you what each process does via comments.

 

This is exactly what I've done to write this code.

Huh?

Yeah right. WHY AREN'T YOU????


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To the rest, I read all your complaints and I'm agreeing to 60% of you. But I'm not saying more, because it'll happen anyway, that over 9000 people are disagreeing to me.

 

This little debate seems to have polarized the community, and from what i’ve seen in irc, people are lining up on either side of the argument. To be honest, its interesting to see the passion each side has but, I can’t help but feel you aren’t really getting anywhere. I’m going to speak in huge sweeping statements because, I can’t and don’t know what each individual is thinking, but it seems like neither side is listening to the other. Furthermore, what I’m saying addresses the debates kicking off in IRC aswell, not jsut specifically the arguments put forward in this thread. Without getting into the nitty gritty of, which side thinks what, and who’s ‘right’about what – neither of you are attempting to empathise with the other side, yet you expect them to listen to you and say “actually, you have a point.” Instead you are simply repeating the same arguments at each other, trying to out-do each other, and throwing in some insults in there for good measure. Even if you were empirically and absolutely ‘right,’ being provacative and aggressive does nothing but exaberate the problem. Picking each others posts apart in quotes, or flaming people who are disagreeing with you is not remotely helpful and doesn’t really further your cause.


Surely you can see how the opposing side has reached their opinion? I’ll use Tweaker for an example purely because everyone knows who he is and precisely where he stands on the issue. Those who disagree with Tweaker, surely, based on the facts you know about Tweaker, the context and circumstances you know him to be coming from, surely you understand how he has come to feel this way. Surely you can place yourself in those shoes and try and imagine what he is feeling and why. Simarlarly, those who agree with Tweaker, can you not do the same with your ‘opponents.’ EMPATHISE with each other. It’d be a lot more constructive than bludgening each other with the same arguments page after page. In this respect, you’re all as bad as each other.


Finally, while I’m putting the world to rights – stop generalising this one instance of released code on the principle of releasing code altogether. Each instance is different and should be handled differently. The outcome of this particular case shouldn’t enforce a rule that will be generalised to every single case of shared code. Each case should be treated on its own merit.

 

To be honest, making "open source" hacks will just lose originality. Like I've said before, guides that don't delve into much are excellent. But shit like porting Knuckles to Sonic 1 would go too far, because it'd just share the same fate as the spin dash guide. Stuff that used to be a technical achievement is no longer because of the vast amount of guides being churned out. Just look at some code and build from it and really, I'm really only interested in a few hacks now because of how things roll. Make the damn stuff yourself, don't rely on guides too much, otherwise your hack is gonna be at the bottom of the pile, and barely anyone'll be interested.


Anyway, let's have a nice hot cup of tea. Too much drama on here anyway and it'll probably scare off members. No wonder people go elsewhere, every fucking week there's something that brings everybody here because of a situation. Always derailing a topic as well, doesn't matter if the topic was good or not!


P.S: Ollie hosts the SCAA, and regardless of that nobody cares about the place any more, the concept is dead and more people are doing stuff themselves.

 

I wouldn't say the drama always drives people away, in this case I think it's actually been quite an interesting discussion.

 

Yeah, but really this is what always brings the flock to here. They hear that something's going down and they rush to make their opinions known. With the exception of a few topics recently, it's always the dramatical content that gets them in.

 

The originality argument is flawed. Sonic 1 has Sonic jump, Megamix has Sonic jumping too, clearly Megamix copied the jumping idea from Sonic 1, oh dear. That pause feature, copied too, oh my. And while we're at it, why is Sonic even IN Megamix? They dun copied the character from Sega and Sonic Team, talk about unoriginal, jeez.

 

This is the shittiest way to try and make a point and fail that I've ever seen.


I've been thinking, and I'm considering making an example of a proper piece of code to share. It's somewhat of a tutorial, but also not really; it'll cover easy ways to add moves, how to customize them in whatever way the user pleases, and make sure that whoever is reading it will understand it--otherwise they won't be able to add any moves to their hack. Providing a solid basis is what people need; providing everything for them will only have detrimental results.

 

Now Tweaker, that is exactly what this community needs. To learn, rather than copy-paste.

 

Shitty and fail to you maybe, but not everyone else, meh.

 

Could someone split this and rename it to "Should knowledge be controlled? 2" or something?

 

Not really. Instead of programming from scratch, you're given a base. That base is a game already released, compiled, and finally disassembled. Wow, look mum, we have official licensed code to play with now!! Everything in there is a given. To think of it in terms of programming, the disassembled Sonic 1 is now a pre-made game engine to work with. Jumping is in, pausing is in, because these are features required in every game, especially a Sonic game. (Okay, jumping not so much, but pausing yes.)


Now, we have Person A come along with their hack. Wow! He gave Sonic new moves! He now has a jump dash, a spindash, a peelout, a wall kick, etc. Cor, isn't he amazing, he's coded it all by himself and learnt something.


From this, we now get Person B come along with their already in-progress hack, and decides "Hm, I like some of those, I want them too, but I don't know how to do it yet" So, Person B goes away, improves at their ASM skills, until eventually they get the moves in they want. Cor, look at that, not only did they get what they want, but they did it all by themselves, and they also learnt something.


Now, this repeats through Persons C to F, but Person F decides "Right, I've done this now. It seems popular, let's release it to everyone!" And so they do. Cue a topic with the entire code posted, exactly where to place it, and nothing else.


Person G arrives on the scene. He has an in-progress hack as well. He decides now "Ooh, I want those moves too! They'll be great!" Unfortunately, Person G's ASM skills aren't up-to-scratch kinda like Person B's was. Instead of going away and improving at their ASM skills, he finds the topic with the entire code done for him. He thinks "Okay, it's already done here, why should I bother?" and copy-pastes it all in. Et voila, instant-move! Cor, isn't he clever? Not only does he have a fully working new move, but he's learnt absolutely nothing.


Persons B to F all now have awesome ASM skills, improving all the time, able to make new things for their game, slowly releasing their code for people like Person G. Those people just throw in the code, with no effort whatsoever. Not only is the originality of new moves (as in this example) lost, the exact same moves, with the exact same code and exact same look, feel and outcome appear in almost every hack ever. This also brings detriment to the people who did all the work originally, and those that do it all themselves in the future, as it makes them look like all they did is copy-paste and learn nothing as well.


Right, it's time for a "what-if" change on this story. What if Person F decided "Instead of releasing the move entirely, I could release a step-by-step guide on how I came up with the code, knew where to put it all, etc. Surely this would benefit people!" And so he does. Person G finds this new guide, uses it, and makes his first move with it. Yes, it's a step-by-step guide, but at least now he understands exactly how it works. He thinks "I'm going to use this knowledge to make my own moves now!" And so he does. By doing so, not only does he improves his ASM skills, slowly building them up again, but he learnt something.


Today's topic was brought to you by the letter T. Because I need some tea, badly. Pip pip!

 

This made me thinking about all this... Here's my story:


I'm Person F. And, Person G has just joined SSRG. Before he has done his first post, he saw this Jumpdash and took it. Now he thinks "Wow, this is awesome!" and creates his post in the Showroom. Of course he said "All credits for the Jumpdash to Person F". The first guys are saying "Awesome." But then the first few people are not thinking this is a good idea and say "Please, remove this". This made Person G thinking, but he don't want to remove the code. Person F has meanwhile the guide removed and is working on a step-by-step guide. After he finished and released it he got a lots of good critics. But Person G still don't want to use this one: "Why should I remove the current code and use this? It's the same code!". Person H arrives. He is a Tech Member and has a lot of ASM skills. He reads everything that was done and thinks "Man, this Person G is really a fool." and post his meanings. Person G ignored it. That made him angry and he said him everything. Finally Person G removed the code and done the step-by-step guide. But he hasn't learned anything, because he just took the little parts of the code and put it together. This is still copying and pasting, but he don't want to learn, so everyone is quite now. Person I, which is also new, arrives. He has absolutly no skills and starts to study his skills with the Sonic 2 Spindash, but he failed. Then he saw the Jumpdash and reads every single comment. Fastly his knowledge grown and shortly after that he released his first hack, featuring a never seen move: The Dinspash. Not much time his knowledge was that awesome. He became a Tech Member and is now teaching everyone about this. Person J arrives. He's is the same guy as Person A. So the Story continues to Person Z, who finally ends up everything with something I can't say.


So, creating this story was fun. I like to create this, and I hope it's a good example. Whatever you want to say, I'm open. Oh and also, I gonna remove the guide. Currently I'm working on a step-by-step guide (although I don't really know how to step-by-stepping this... suggestions please).


Thanks for your words Cinossu!


EDIT: Fuck, I haven't backed up the Text here. Is the old version still on the site? If so, please give it to me.

 

Once upon a time, on a forum.. *hit*


I understand what you're getting at. Unfortunately, with any step-by-step guide, there are always going to be people who just plonk the code in to their hacks. They'll suffer for it, sure, but they'll still do it. The difference is you've given them the choice. The ball is in their court, so to speak.


The only other problem I personally have with released moves is that it means almost every hack has to have it. Hack X has move A, then everyone wants it. With no released move, only those with the ASM skill can get it. Release the move? Hacks Y, Z, А, Б, В, Г, Д, Е, Ж, and З all get it too, and that move becomes cheap and not something that makes the hack somewhat special anymore.

 

Actually I must give thanks only to Cinossu. He's the only one who made a proper reason for taking it back. He hasn't said "Tak sis shidd bek!".

I know. I'm always imagine what's happening when someone is releasing a real and fully functionial Peelout (including Delay). I made a Peelout like this, but I won't give it to anyone except my friends. Also, for the step-by-step guide, should I do it know or will the same problems happen?


Once again: Thanks Cinossu!

 

So what if every hack contains the base move, those who are just copy and pasting it will do just that and their hack will be crap as a result of it, but the true creativity and originality will come from Person B through F as they fix and modify the base code into something new and improved or functions differently while Person G's hack will fall into obscurity because of the lack of originality. Releasing code has its risks, but to say that code in general should not be released because of the risk of a Person G is rather foolish to me.


I'm not saying everyone needs to open source their hacks, but if someone wants to release their code publicly they should be able to without having a bunch of people stiff-arming them into not doing so.

 

Sure, they can release it if they want. But expecting people not to be pissed off over it is stupid as well. There will always be people of all views to things. As I said, I personally don't like the idea of releasing complete code for copy/paste reasons, at least without a guide on what it means. But that's me.

 

That's why I'm now making a guide. I will use the same code, but I will explain every single line/step.

 

Ok, it's the 8th June of 2009 and happened? The Jumpdash Code is back. I removed it some time ago, but now I think it's good to be back.


I said, I will make a step-by-step guide. But after I figured the most people are ripping it off anyway, it looked useless for me, so I've kept it simple. Also, I worked hard on this guide. I don't want to remove daily long work just because some people are not agreeing.


I know, now people will think "Uoah, dood dis shid wil mak hax borin!!!1" but I don't care this time. Argue if you want, I will not reply.


Why it's back, I posted it some time ago on Sofia, but why should I post it there, but not here?


And to the code itself, it's much better than v1.0 (the one I've posted at first).


So yeah, have fun, argue with me, say what I said in line 3...