Sonic 2 But With More Level Design v1.00

Discussion in 'Showroom Archive' started by Unlimited Trees, Apr 3, 2016.

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  1. Unlimited Trees

    Unlimited Trees Banned for being a fucking cockwomble Exiled

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    I'm a trialist now. Yay. Now it is time for me to show off my project, as promised in my previous posts in "The Wall".

    Sonic 2 But With More Level Design (Or just S2BWMLD) is a simple hack whose goal is to expand each of the zones (except for Metropolis Zone and Oil Ocean as their level design is already large enough) without majorly changing the game itself. So far, there are 2 complete zones, Emerald Hill and Chemical Plant. They are mostly the same, except with more pathways, more routes, and more difficulty added to the game.

    Please note that this is a very early demo, so if you find any glitches or you think the levels need some changes, then feel free to tell me.

    Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kj179fwbu1k96j6/Sonic 2 But With More Level Design DEMO.zip?dl=0

    Razor and Zenon's video of it:

    Programs used: SonED, Stealth

    P.S For some reason in CPZ, if you are at the higher parts of the level, the background messes up. I have no idea why it does this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
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  2. Misinko

    Misinko Oh SHIT it's the Biolizard! Member

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    Judging by your video alone, it seems you've got a solid foundation when it comes to level design. However, I do see a few issues poking out here and there. For instance, there are several segments where you just let level chunks end without their proper endpeice. You primarily do this with blue tubes. I suggest taking better advantage of the platforms and various objects you have available to make the levels more seamless.

    Keep working on your hack though. I'm interested in seeing how you improve.
     
  3. Unlimited Trees

    Unlimited Trees Banned for being a fucking cockwomble Exiled

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  4. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic Also known as RHS Member

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    Please try to avoid one worded posts, thanks :)
     
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  5. Royameadow

    Royameadow Welcome to the modern existence. Member

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    A fair balance between Layout Modification and Difficulty Increasing, something that is still very rare from modern hacks in the scene, I feel that this project is definitely in the plus, I truly do feel this one going somewhere positive.
    Layout mods that do not change the art, music, or fix any bugs are still rather common, and they usually are rather good if done right, titles such as The Lost Land, Red Hot Sonic 02: Red Hot Fire, More than a Memory: The Perfect Existence, and Sonic the Hedgehog 03: D.A. Garden Edition are all prime examples of how one could change the game without having to do too much outside of layout (and slight art) modification and still deliver to the audience an extremely good time, that is what I feel that your hack is aiming to deliver and I praise that wholly indeed; if I had to say though, select portions at the end of Chemical Plant Zone Act 01 look as if they are rather narrow, I kind of find that to possibly be a bit troubling for newcomers, so I would recommend that to be changed to prevent any complaints on level design following its Revision 00 release; overall though, this is a decent approach that I do hope turns into something more major, I truthfully do miss having a fresh and new experience from Layout hacks such as this one, so wishfully, this will be one that I will enjoy playing in the long run, it already looks attractive without doing too much to the original game, that be what I like about it so far. :)

    EDIT (Night of April 07/Early April 08, 02:28 A (EST)): Looking more into this project, thanks to that of Markey Jester's stream, I've got to agree that this does indeed need some serious work as we go into the later portions of the times, a good amount of the layout modifications are a little too treacherous and some are rather unforgiving, such areas must be overhauled.
    Some of these layouts are as difficult as what Sonic the Hedgehog 02: The Lost Worlds had delivered to us, and if anybody remembers from my commentary of it with Gabriel on the channel, then it's been noted down that a level cannot be good if there are bad traps and bottomless pits in all the wrong places, which all of the levels that this applies to seem to suffer from; please do consider on modifying what doesn't work and polish up your layouts, there is a difference between Challenge and Unforgivable, and this ROM hack is more in the middle of both in a Moderately Negative way; but hey, once you work around that, you'll be all set, you'll have a better work than you have now, it will be more playable from the positive changes, so take your time on this, there be no rush to get anything out earlier than it must.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2016
  6. AURORA☆FIELDS

    AURORA☆FIELDS so uh yes Exiled

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    I tried out the hack, and there is few very big flaws, that makes this hack not fun to play. Here are those flaws;
    • Too many paths with no reason to exist and are too short and not revarding
    • No clear reward for getting into harder upper paths
    • Too vertical feeling levels. Easy to fall blindly to possibly your death
    • Lack of objects and things to interact with at times.
    • Chunks that cut off. This is not 2004 anymore!
    • You need to glitch through some chunks to get further
    • There is no flow to speak of. This is something that can make the levels feel good to go through, whether they are slow or fast. Because of this lack of flow, your levels feel mainly just sluggish and boring.
    I would recommend taking a look at levels like Ice Cap Zone, and Death Egg Zone. Both of these levels have slow, and fast sections, and both of these levels manage to make the player feel like the level is one seamless experience. They have both no alternative paths, and a few of them, as well as are huge levels, vertically and horizontally, yet they at pretty much no time feel sluggish, quite the opposite. They could teach tons about level design and what actually works.
     
  7. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic Also known as RHS Member

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    Huh? I don't remember that subtitle? Did you just make that up? =P
     
  8. Royameadow

    Royameadow Welcome to the modern existence. Member

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    Nope, not making it up, GoodGen Version 03.21 has Red Hot Sonic 02 known simply as Red Hot Fire in the Sonic the Hedgehog 02 folder, I presume that it is known as Red Hot Fire in other regions of the Sonic Hacking scene, that might explain this confusion.
    Also, presumably to prevent Conflict of Interest with your official Redhotsonic trademark and franchise, in Sonic Boll and other works that have a Red Sonic that uses Fire and Flame Elemental abilities, instead of calling him Redhotsonic, they will give him the name of Red or Fire; Sonic Boll refers to RHS as Fire, if you were wondering, he remains to be Blue Sonic until you get a Fire Flower, which causes him to then transform into RHS, rather interesting of a find indeed. :)
     
  9. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic Also known as RHS Member

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    Um... okay then...

    Anyway, back on topic. Going by the video, the level layout looks like it has some sort of structure at the beginning, although nearer the end, it seems to look like you just started placing random tiles here and there. Throughout the whole level, it looks a bit blotchy and needs neatening up.
     
  10. Ayla

    Ayla Sonic Hacking Contest Founder & Commentator Member

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    I hate to do this to people, but here it goes... Your level design is god awful. It is completely random, and it almost seems as though you took random 128x128 chunks and spammed them all over the level. I hate to be an asshole, but I've been doing level design for years and this is a travesty.

    Now tearing you down doesn't make sense without building you back up. There is something you're doing wrong (obviously). I can say off the bat that you went into SonED and just started changing chunks around and replacing them with whatever else was there. You saw a couple chunks that would lead somewhere or had a clever idea (a small area that Sonic could run through, go down through, spindash and jump to, etc.) and implemented it. You then did it again for the next couple of chunks. This leads to a complete break in level flow. It's like you have 2 - 4 chunk micro-levels implemented throughout CPZ.

    This being said, your concepts are good. They just don't flow. They don't make an coherent level. To figure out a good way to do this, what I used to do is actually draw out my level designs on paper. I would then completely NUKE the level I wanted to change. This left a clean slate to work with. I would then add my chunks into the levels. Sometimes I would need to change chunks around to suit my ideas. Sometimes they were already there.

    What mattered, though, is that my getting rid of what was already there and drawing out the whole level, it forced me to create something that flowed. I couldn't have blocky level layouts like what I saw in that video. That being said, I had a couple levels that were like your version of CPZ when I first started. Keep at it. If you want some personal help or pointers on anything, feel free to PM me. I'll hook you up with better contact info via PM and we can talk.
     
  11. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester ♡ ! Member

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    Ahoy! Another hack to play on stream. Delightful~

    As usual 6pm.

    This hack gave me a headache, I do not feel I need to explain why, Natsumi and the rest have already done so, and I agree with them 100%.

    It is my opinion that you should stop, think, is this the kind of game that SEGA would release? Is this the kind of game people would really want to play?

    The answer is obviously no at this point, but you should continue to ask yourself on a constant basis to ensure your product is performing to its highest possible duck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
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  12. pixelcat

    pixelcat The Holy Cat Jr. Member

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    [offtop]
    yee, 3 staff replies in a row!
    [offtop]

    Back to topic, those new layouts look... bland. Add more objects to 'em!
     
  13. EMK-20218

    EMK-20218 The Fuss Maker Exiled

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    All that seems to have been made on this hack was the removal of the speed, and holes opened here and there in the original layouts. When did I read the words 'But with more level design' I was hoping a level layout extension and the mantainance of their original speed and the enjoyment of their verticality. I felt kinda disappointed after playing this hack.
     
  14. goalring185

    goalring185 Newcomer In Limbo

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    maybee it,s not the worst hack i,ve ever looked on, but it need a lot of work to improve on it 2.5/10, better thgen hold right to win
     
  15. AbyssalLeopard

    AbyssalLeopard Well-Known Member Member

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    No offense, but don't you think that just telling the guy to give up is the attitude? I'm sure lots of people here had started pretty miserably and ended up having much better results through the time. I'd say, let's just give him time, you know, and with what he shows we can tell him where he should improve.

    Anyway, moving into the hack itself. While it is certainly not my cup of tea, I'll just say I've seen worse. I'm not going to talk about the issues this hack has because Natsumi has already pointed out several things that, in my opinion, you should consider, and so has Ayla and many others here. However, unlike other sceners around here, you have put a good amount of chunks that make common sense, and I haven't seen unfair difficulty anywhere, which is a good start.

    Let me tell you a thing here. Don't make your motivation fall apart because of the negative criticism given there. Some people might be tougher, some softer when talking about things, but what we intend is that you consider our points, and make them useful for yourself to improve. To sum up, practice makes perfect, so keep working on things and you will eventually reach your goals. Be patient, steady, and the most important thing, do NEVER, ever give up if you want to actually finish something there.

    Good luck with your next releases!
     
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  16. Clownacy

    Clownacy Retired Staff lolololo Member

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    He didn't tell him to give up, he said to stop and ask yourself if your work is worth releasing.
     
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  17. AbyssalLeopard

    AbyssalLeopard Well-Known Member Member

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    Well, nevermind then. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
     
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  18. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden Sonic CD's Sound Test Member

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    I've watched some of this on stream, and also played a bit, and I can say that I am not impressed. The start of Emerald Hill Zone Act 1 wasn't too bad, but it quickly dissolved into a mess where chunks were placed with no sense of purpose or didn't fit properly and object placement was either questionable or lacking. I also hated feeling a sense of dread whenever there was a gap in front of me, as half of them led to a death pit, while others were just blind jumps to land below. Chemical Plant's new layout sections in particular suffer from a problem whereby they are pointless to take, as they either lead to the same main path, or end at a misplaced wall chunk or a death pit.

    I think you need to go back and figure out the purpose of alternate routes first, and how the original games make them work so well. Then, look at how layouts in general are made, including the object placement, and use it as a guide for your own work. Don't just copy the original layout sections, but don't ignore them either, as they are typically rather solid in terms of positioning and the like.

    Also, please look into path swappers, and how they work. I got stuck several times in Chemical Plant Zone due to being on the wrong path.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  19. Unlimited Trees

    Unlimited Trees Banned for being a fucking cockwomble Exiled

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    Sorry it took me a while to respond. I was too busy fending off the Flying Volcanoes. I asked Markey to get rid of the Flying Volcanoes, but apparently he is too busy doing "things" that he doesn't have time for me.

    Anyways, after reading all of your complaints. I decided to do the following:

    -Can this version of the hack and start over. Since you guys thought the level design of this hack was bad, I am going to get rid of it. However, the concepts such as the tubes in CPZ are going to be in the new versions of the hack.

    -I am going to use both SonED2 AND a disassembly. I used SonED1 because it's more easier to use and I'm a lot more used to it. I tried out SonED2 before, but I don't like the Project Files. Why do we need them anyway? Can't we just edit "s1bulit.bin" or the Sonic 2 ROM instead of having separate files to edit? I sort of get it for Sonic 1, since in SonED1 you had to use save states, but I don't understand it for Sonic 2. It's just my opinion though.

    (Also, although I will be using a disassembly, I am only going to edit a few sprites and maybe add a new level. I don't know what I'm going to do yet.)

    -I am going to do what Ayla said and completely nuke the levels. However this does mean getting rid of the whole "levels basically being the same as the original but with more pathways" thing. Oh well. The hack would do a lot better if I do this, though.

    -Death Egg Zone is going to be unedited. I saw that in the comments of Razor and Zenon's walkthrough of my hack that someone didn't like DEZ because of the fact that there are only 2 platforms to stand on. I thought it made it more challenging since the Death Egg Robot was easy as hell on it's own, but I guess people don't like it when a Robot is walking on air.

    Anyways, I am going to try better when making the next version. Hopefully, I can make it better. Also, thanks for the criticism. Despite the fact that I just got beat down by a bunch of "master hackers", I feel glad... somehow. I think. Maybe.

    Okay I am running out of words to say so have the word and.


    and.



    Edit: Holy shit I even got SuperEgg to hate this. Man, life sure is wonderful!
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2016
  20. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester ♡ ! Member

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    Post another irrelevant large image again, and I shall issue a suspention.

    I'm not sure what you're on, but whatever it is, it doesn't belong here.
    I never said "give up", I didn't use those words.

    I was merely suggesting a strategy for improvement, asking yourself the rhetorical questions I just asked then, you can improve the quality of your product. Please don't put words into my mouth thank you.
     
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