SONIC THE HEDGEHOG EVOLUTION

Discussion in 'Showroom Archive' started by Raionhardt, Jun 3, 2016.

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  1. Misinko

    Misinko Oh SHIT it's the Biolizard! Member

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    Because that's the point of the trailer. To wow people with that you've got thus far. If you don't wow people, then your trailer has failed. Trailers are the first instances for people to get an idea on whether or not they're going to like your game.And if they don't, well then they have every right to critique what they see.

    No, I expect it to look decent, not like every other Unreal Sonic fan game out there. And nowadays "woah is me, I'm the only one working on my game" doesn't fly. Minecraft, Braid, Papers Please, Dust, and Roller Coaster Tycoon were all made by one developer, all of those have original assets that had to be made, all of those had to basically be coded from scratch, and Roller Coaster Tycoon is coded in x86 for heaven's sake. What's your excuse? I understand, fangames aren't going to look as good as their official counterparts, but there is a standard for design nowadays, and you are failing spectacularly at living up to it.

    He says, as he dismisses every single point I brought up.

    The fact that your game can be held up, compared to, and be put in the same league as those other "badly done games" should show you that there is an issue at hand. It should tell you that your work is not up to snuff, and that you need to improve. No one is talking about people who do less work and get more fame. That's the way it's always been in all fascists of technology, and that's a fact we have to deal with. However, just because other people get away with doing less doesn't mean you shouldn't do more. Those guys appeal to the mass audience and get lauded for it. However, fantastic games always have the chance to shine through if they're good enough.


    And there's nothing wrong with that. However, the changes need to make sense from a design perspective. You can be as weird and crazy with how your game works as you want, it's what makes stuff like the Persona fighting games and TF2 so great. But you need to have some semblance of your genre left over. Going too ham with your stuff leads to poor design. Having those giant loops with no clear indication of where you're at is bad design. Having huge open areas with nothing in them while you're trying to get to the goal is bad design. So by all means, challenge the standards. But don't make a garbage game in the process.

    In trying to appeal to everyone, you're going to appeal to no one mate. That's just a rule of game design, and even software design in general. In a Sonic game, I don't want to search every nook and cranny to find every little thing, and the people who do want to do that stuff don't want to play a Sonic game. If I wanted to do that, I'd play an Adventure game, where your goal is to find as much stuff as you can. When I'm playing a Sonic game, I want to get through the levels as quick as I can. That's the appeal of Sonic next to his attitude. If you want to make something more along the lines of an adventure game, then bloody do it with your own character. Don't drag Sonic into it. If people wanted to play the game you're developing, they'd play Morrowind or Fallout. And even if there's the option to get through the levels as quick as you can, it's going to take some major exploration to do so. It's no longer about "what paths are the right ones to take", it's now "where do I have to be on this path to get the perfect time". No matter what incentives you offer players, they're always going to have to play by your rules to get the desired result. And that goes against your philosophy of "let the player do what they want". The only way you're gonna make everyone happy is if you make the levels even LARGER than you've already made them to incorporate a path for those who want to speedrun, which will frustrate the player as they won't know which one to take.

    Then, again, why plaster Sonic's face on the product?

    Again, this would be done better with an original character. You could sell it with an original character as well. This style of gameplay not fit for Sonic. He's always had exploration in his levels, yes, but they've always been linear in design. And they've never been this open or vague.

    Sonic and realism do not mix. Sonic is a 4 foot tall blue hedgehog, he needs to be in a world that compliments his design. Even more reason why you should've made this your own thing.

    THEN SHOW IT. You have a bloody trailer now. Talk is cheep, and it means nothing when you have nothing to show. SHOW OFF the underwater physics. SHOW OFF the slope physics. SHOW OFF the additional jump height. Quit wasting memory space in the servers by typing out that you have everything you claim to have and SHOW IT.

    I should be able to enjoy everything you've put into a game. Again, in trying to appease everyone, you appease no one.

    This screams lazy design, but whatever. That's pure opinion more than anything else.

    Then you shouldn't have a goal ring plastered at the end of the stage. If you wanted it to be truly open, you should have a gateway that allows you to travel to the different levels once you're done exploring the one you're in. Having the structure you have in your game defeats the purpose of it being open in the first place.

    You should have these plastered everywhere so levels don't feel so vast and boring. Part of the fun of an adventure game is having stuff to do in them. No one wants to run around an empty hub with nothing to do, searching for the next trinket. There should be enemies to fight, smaller trinkets to collect, things.

    That's an issue. You're not giving the player any feeling of consistency, which leads to confusion and frustration. The player shouldn't have to explore the level hundreds of times to get the desired results. Not even the most hardcore of adventure game fans play through the games 100s of times in order to find each and everything thing. The only people who do are speedrunners, and they most likely don't play through the games that much.

    Again, you're defeating the purpose of an open world.

    Again mate, consistency! You can't just change up your philosophy sporadically throughout your game, that's bad design.

    No. No, no, no, no NO! This is the one thing you can't pull the "I do things my own way" on. There are literal theories dedicated to this stuff. There are classes taught on the subject, books written about, and a standard that most, if not all, artists look up to. There is a certain way that things have to look to feel "right" or look "appealing" to humans. Even games that are supposed to feel dreary have splotches of color and brightness to them to keep environments from looking too dull. You're making a Sonic the Hedgehog game, things are supposed to look vibrant. Again, I say this, if you want to make something "different", make your own IP.

    Mhm. Oh how we go back on our opinions.

    ...Considering I am your average player, yes. I do think players will notice. I know nothing about color theory, and I know nothing about drawing in general, however I know when something looks off. And your art, my friend, looks off.


    Just because you think it looks "cool", doesn't mean it looks "good". Being "different" does not equate to looking "good". Look at games like Boarderlands and Telltale's lineup. They both have alternative, but distinguished styles that look good. They stick to the standard rules of art, but add their own personal touches. Tossing in extreme colors though, does not a good stylistic choice make. Muddy colors are not fun to look at. Over saturated and bright colors are not fun to look at.

    Music and art do not bloody go hand-in-hand. Music has a bit more leeway because what sounds "good" is more broad than what looks "good". Jazz as a genre did well by challenging the standards and doing it's own thing, but even then, it walked a very fine line in regards of what sounded good, and what didn't. And on top of that, it broke out into a subgenre known as Smooth Jazz, which took a little bit of the soul of Jazz, and made it more structured and mournful. Smooth Jazz is also what people think of when they think of Jazz. I wonder why that is. Anyway, even Jazz knew when to stop. It stuck to the basic rules of music in terms of its composition. The difference between Jazz and other forms of music is that the players felt the music as they played. However, the artists still knew what notes went well together, and knew what instruments to harmonize at what times. When your professor told you to break the rules, he wasn't talking about going completely a-wall, he was talking about breaking more nebulous concepts like composing with time signatures in mind, and over all flow of notes tying together. Try strumming a random cord with 3 fingers on your guitar. You'll be lucky if it sounds good. Now try strumming another random cord with 3 fingers. You'll be even luckier of both sound good alone, let alone together in a sequence. The same goes for art. You can't just mash up purple and lime green and expect it to look good. With music and art alike, there are a base set of principles that should not be ignored. Otherwise, the end result will be garbage in both cases.

    Then focus on a less complex art style. If you can't do something the way you envision it, then tone it down, and do what you can do.

    That's bad design. You're not making the level hard, by not allowing the player to see where they are, you make it unfair. The player should always be aware of what's coming up ahead. When they can't see obstacles, or their own bloody position in the level, they can't react to it fast enough. Ergo, it becomes unfair.

    Could've fooled me, considering it looks like Shadow's in the middle of space.

    Question: Why do you enjoy toying with your audience so much? Do you want to loose every single follower you'll have? Do you want your next project to be ignored? Because that's exactly how you go about doing it. People didn't like it when Rocksteady made them think their Xbox had crapped out on them in Arkham Asylum. Trying to frustrate and confuse your players will always lead to them hating you.

    TotalBiscut uses a mouse and keyboard in all of his reviews, and the movement looks buttery smooth. There's no excuse for how jaring yours looks. And a poor camera is a big deal. If a player can't properly turn the camera to see where he's going, it's going to lead to, you guessed it, frustration.

    Trailers usually come out around a year or so before the game itself is actually released. At that point, the game is either nearing the end of beta, or is in the final stage, and touchups are going underway. And the game is most likely near finished by that point. If you look at all the content that was shown off before Arkham Knight's release, everything seemed to be in place. The Batmobile sections, combat mechanics and systems, stealth sections, and even entire portions of the game were shown off, hinting that the game was nearly done.

    You say that like it means something. Just because you showed off bits and pieces of your work before it was nearly done doesn't mean it was a smart move on your end. And showing off bits and pieces of your game does not equate to making a bloody trailer for it. You mentioned AAA and AA devs releasing trailers for their games before they were out of beta. Well unlike you, they had things of substance to show off. They didn't have sprawling levels with nothing in them. They didn't have shoddy camera wok. They didn't have promised features that weren't shown off in the trailers. You, on the other hand, have given us next to nothing. You've made a trailer that shows off nothing of the game you've promised. You've made a trailer that does more to waste the viewer's time than it does to show why they should be playing the game. You've got all these supposed features in your game, yet you couldn't be bothered to show them off. Bravo good sir. All you've done is spout hot air at us. All we have are empty promises and a disappointing trailer. So by all means, release a trailer early if you want to kill off any and all interest you would've had for your game. You've certainly done that for me.

    If you want your project to be known for deviling none of the promised features in it's initial media run, then by all means do it. I never said you were breaking any laws. Your cockiness is starting to annoy me.

    With your UE4 spiel, all I see are excuses, and that's also grating to me, so let's wrap this up.

    Your inability to handle criticism honestly astounds me. You've literally deflected each and every piece of advice I've offered you, even after I went into explicit detail about my thoughts. There is nothing I have said that you haven't excused in some way. That's not "handling criticism", that's denying that the criticism exists. I'm most likely wasting my time by typing up this incredibly long response in the first place, but I need to say it. I need to get this off my chest. I am so sick of people coming onto the forums, showing off their work, receiving criticism, and shrugging it off like it's nothing. You did it to myself, and you did it to Xeal. We're trying to help you out, and you keep on your merry little path, thinking that your design choices are supreme. When you unveil something to the public, you make it a public product. You are now susceptible to the opinions and critiques of the public. If you want to keep your project tailored to your own wants and desires, then keep it private. Update it as you go along, and make it the best experience you can for yourself. The proper response to someone critiquing your hack that you've shown off to the public, isn't "well I want it this way", it's "how can I incorporate this feedback into my game, and still have it aligned with my vision?" You've made it clear that you want people to follow your game. Well then take the will of the people into account, and you'll get a better public turnout. Like I said, you've completely lost any and all interest I had in the project based on the trailer, and your response to critique thus far. Open your mind to feedback, and stop deflecting everything that doesn't perfectly align with your vision for the game.
     
  2. Raionhardt

    Raionhardt Vanguard Member

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    To cut the thing short:

    My design is bad, great. I didn't made a course on that. Then suggest me some books or other material to study. I only got here after 4 years of hard studying by myself (courses here aren't great + not free or cheap). If you thinking I don't accept criticize, that is your view, but I can point several things I did better because of people who do feedback to me.

    Have you seen I before I posted the trailer, months ago, I was looking for level designers? That is because I don't believe me doing the level design may be the best for the project. Have you put yourself in disposition to at least making some pointers or suggested other people or told me about someone who have good skills on that?

    And last, you're all good at criticizing art, level design and game stuff. But you are all horrible to treat other people. That is the big problem in Sonic fangame communities. People tend to show they are angry or envy of people doing whatever they doing, so they dismiss with a lot of heavy critics. They never see positive traits (in the best scenario, positive is a word to only say the work of other have nothing of it), they don't treat people well. Doesn't matter what you think about it. And probably a lot of people will become very defensive and come posting later just to hit me harder after I said that, only proving my point. I really don't worry about what people say in internet, because they don't change nothing in my life, but there are people that do and do the worst stuff with torture thenselves later. There are good rules to follow when living in a society, those, differently from design rules, seems to be completelly ignored.

    Other comunities have people that worry how they say things to others, no matter how right you may be, the way you all aproach it is ridiculous, stupid and ignorant. And all that only show that you're right at what you say.

    Now, if after that the will of the members is to come here to use my words against myself, attack me, show me how wrong I am or bash more, then I have nothing else to do here in this forum and is best to the admin lock the topic and delete it (but what probably will happen is someone pointing this out, ignoring my last sentence above and call me some lunacy).
     
  3. LuigiXHero

    LuigiXHero Well-Known Member Member

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    Just because your working alone and is just a fan working on a project, doesn't mean you get away with not meeting anyone expectations.

    There are many who were all by themselves and make excellent games that are famous now.

    The likes of Cave Story, Minecraft, Taxman Remakes, Freedom Planet, Undertale, they are all made by one person. (Well S1 and S2 remakes Steath helped with but still).

    I realize that most of them are 2D games.

    There's also No Man's Sky, which while it isn't what everybody was hoping for. It was still made by a very tiny team and looks really great.

    Umm no one is attacking you? It's run of the mill critiquing and I'm pretty sure you'll get it elsewhere.
     
  4. Soldaten

    Soldaten The Coilgun Root Admin

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    ...the only thing just see here is you whining about receiving legitimate criticism. This is the same exact shit we told Ashuro a good while back, but even with his constant asinine behavior, guess what? He actually took legitimate criticism into account and stated he'd make changes to his hack. All you have done here is complain and say no to everything. Not once in any of your responses have you taken heed to what anyone has told you. You're creating this mindset that you're being attacked when you aren't in the slightest. This is what happens when you release things to the public that don't meet expectations. Get your head out of your ass and stop crying, because acting like this isnt going to get you far in any community or in life for that matter if this is how you act to any form of critique. This isn't a fault of the Sonic community. You only have yourself to blame. Shape up, and bring something that actually needs to be shown that will grab people's attention to the table, instead of emptiness and then sitting there wondering why in the hell people are complaining when they damn well should be.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  5. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden Temporary Secretary: Sir Paul McCartney Staff

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    I'm going to give my own impressions on the first minute or so of this video, for what it's worth. Some of this may have been said before, but I don't have the patience or the time to read through the huge wall above.

    0:19 - 0:22 reminds me of Emerald Coast from Sonic Adventure, but with a hint of Sonic '06 about it. It looks pretty good, if a little too desaturated.
    0:23 - 0:42 has a few crazy testing ideas going on. I think Sonic in 3D can be a bit crazy in places, but not overly elaborate. The amount of corkscrews and twisting paths above look out of place compared to the flat forest area below, and create a jarring contrast. While it's also nice to see a better 'wall-running' mechanic than, say, Sonic '06, it doesn't need to be shoe-horned in for the sake of it. I feel that the phrase 'less-is-more' applies here.
    0:43 - 0:46 Shadow appears to have an upwards air dash? It's a bit hard to tell. I think it could work if the layouts work around it, and accommodate it. It shouldn't be necessary, though.
    0:46 - 0:58 shows a few problems with the open world format that I hear people bang on about so much. I personally think that Sonic in 3D should have the illusion of an open world, but actually restrict the player in some way. Sonic Adventure 1 did this in a rather clever way that was sort of used again in Sonic Generations, although not to the same extent. The problem here is too much choice, with little pay off. I can run in any direction, sure, but why would I want to? It's all the same open forest area with nothing there. I know this is a work in progress, but even other fan games that have tried the open world format have the same issue. Consider every direction a player may run in, and give them an incentive to.
    0:58 - 1:03 I can barely make anything out. There's a lack of lighting, which I presume is supposed to be atmospheric, but instead makes it difficult for me to make anything out.
    1:03 - 1:12 suffers from the same problem. Again, there's a way of doing an evening setting without going overly dark. While it may look nice, it hampers the game experience as you can't see your surroundings properly.

    I'm going to stop there. The gameplay doesn't look particularly interesting as a whole, which is my main problem with it. It looks visually interesting, but the lack of vibrant colours takes the tone down a little. I think you've released this video a little early, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. You should probably take some of the criticism on board at this early stage to improve what you've currently got, and make it into something even better.
     
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  6. Raionhardt

    Raionhardt Vanguard Member

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    @Xeal I am not whining and whatever. And it is you who must take your head off your ass, because your head and your month is full of shit. I complained that the way people criticize, started by you, is not educated, and it is not, just read what you write. You are a completelly ignorant jerk without manners - that is what I am trying to say. If there is someone who will have problem in life is you. I already explained things and gave my arguments. You were the ones who didn't accepted or respected my arguments. Who said I didn't listened to the criticize that was made? Who said I didn't made annotations and put then on a list of ToDo I have to try to do different and compare?? Who are you so I need to bow my head and agree with everything that was said? I am not here trying to get your attention and favor.

    Do yourself a favor, Xeal? Since I am not wanting to listen and am a completelly moron, why you wasting your time beating a dead dog? Go take care of your stuff. If I am crying person with the head inside the ass, why are you here yet? Do you think that the way you speak show any compassion or wanting to help anyone? You already show from the other post you only came here to put a bait and see if someone would bite it.

    And if is the way you treat people, I tell you, that is not the way other communites do. Like If here there is no rule... How things are written matter, and that is what does a critic become constructive, showing respect. You don't deserve respect by the way you put your opnion, - I would call you what you deserved to be called, but I am really holding here, and if you acted like that with others while criticizing, like admiting you consider another person here an 'asinine', you're is a worse jerk than you look, no respect warranted, no matter how 'right' you may be. There is a rule to respect the community right here, and although is not extremelly elaborated, there is a point to be "reasonable". And that is minding words and how they are used. Have you seen the other critics in the rest of the topic? When some colleagues here said that some animations could be replaced, I agreed and said was planning to do it, although I am not good with animations, but when I get to learn more, I would go into it. Does that look like dismiss critics? I can't do everything, and I receive a lot of critics and stuff, as like on the comments of that video;

    Also I didn't said I was being attacked to begin with, I meant that the critiques were going to keep going the ignorant way there were going + were going with attacks to my reaction. I may be dumb with design, but not with text interpretation.

    People don't come here to being treated poorly by others, that have explosive behavior, that think that critic is say: "this is it and you have to eat out opnion and do it". They expect to be treated as peers and professionals. If someone don't understand that, it is not me that is not going "far in life". And, yeah, this is not a Sonic developers community problem, no. All canceled project and useless disagreements between members of large communities where just coincidence.

    Also, it was said that I didn't show physics or any stuff. But I have other videos which already have some of that on my channel, but no one bother to check more work about the game. But there is slope physics that can be seem on one of the old videos here:



    The trailer have the slope jump visible at 1:00.

    Thanks D.A Garden, the wall above is partially by the way people give their critics in ways that aren't the best. I going to reply to you in parts here:

    Yeah, it was lacking colors on the video. I was having a fight with lighting and post process to see if was better to be at 7am or 10am. Right now is like this:

    [​IMG]

    That was one of the few exagerated tests I did. Actually I kept because one of the 3 paths, that you can see on the image above, go there (the middle path on the left). I am trying to do some crazy geology stuff like those large boulders on Final Fantasy XV and use as loops, but they are totally optional paths. This level is the introductory level, so it goes a little too much in a small space to show what the game features.

    Yes, Shadow moveset is different. He also have less resistence going up slopes, higher acceleration, low top speed and is energy-based. So in some places he can be like an easy mode, but without rings or enemies, he can be screwed, since most skills except jump use energy, while Sonic need to use bounce, spin dash or use his energy based uppercut (recover move) to work his way to other places. There is a video with Shadow moveset on this topic. Some areas on some levels are easier to access or only acessible with Shadow skills (Sonic 3 & Knuckles secret Knuckles areas).

    I struggled a lot with the idea of open world, and I just put some open areas that are cleary visible from the main level. The music stops playing if you go there to give a cue you're not on level anymore. And I believe besides the open background (not including islands, they're not accessible), the level is quite well blocked, here is another printof the first part:

    [​IMG]

    That level use the perception againt the player. The cristal material doesn't rebound light and uses high refraction as a visual cue. Space between objects also lose meaning on this Special Stage, which makes part of the difuculty.

    Yes, I will see if I can even with this atmosphere setting I can boost the light up to get it better before I render lighitng, but since this is the sixth level, there are not many worries on that for now. If Unreal had a dynamic indirect global ilumination, I woudn't need to wait the level to be finished to render light, boosting it further.


    Another shots from actual version that may clarify some stuff a bit:

    [​IMG]
    Explorating the level need to have several things in story and missions to give depth. I am finishing the game Emblem to put one there in this mural on the ceiling of this underwater cave.

    [​IMG]

    There are areas that are only transposable with common gimmicks like springs, but it is never left as the only option. Sometimes may be a dashpad that may take the person to other stuff, but it is placed as an option, not a forced thing.

    One of the paths that Sonic run though on video without much content, now with some obstacles that need directional or action input. Top area is 2d and is not appearing enemies and rings there because of culling distance.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  7. Soldaten

    Soldaten The Coilgun Root Admin

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    Fun fact. Normally when you want people to know that you've taken account to their criticism, you, oh, I don't know... tell them?
    If you had said that from the very start, none of us would have a problem. But instead you constantly deflected what was brought up to you. We aren't fucking mind readers. If you have taken our criticisms into account, then tell us which ones they are SO WE KNOW. This is a basic thing any developer should know, and that's speaking with their community. Not telling us anything only hurts your image, not ours.
    So no, you can't call me an ignorant jerk for not being able to read your fucking mind. These are the things that you're expected to do for us, not the other way around.

    Last time I checked this is a forum I'm a part of and you've brought a project to my attention that I want to converse about. And also, if you talk to a lot of people here (and on Retro as well), I'm actually quite a nice fucking person. I only speak this way when someone is being a needless ass and not using their heads. So don't you dare judge my character when you aren't even around the community much and know nothing about me.

    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, as his behavior around here is quite known to be mindless at times and has been called out on numerous occasions by several members and Staff to be as such, So again, don't comment on things you know nothing about.

    At the start of your most previous reply, you basically admitted that this whole shit show started because you expected us to be mind readers. Again, this is a fault of you, not me, not Misinko, or anyone else.

    Seriously, all you needed to say was "I have taken some of your concerns into account, and they are This, this, this and this".
    Just a simple little sentence, and we wouldn't have this problem.
    I'm done here. This is something that didn't need to happen but blew up because you couldn't do something simple and then proceeded to find problem in us when it was you. Have fun with your project and do the best you fucking can at it, but I've lost any care I had with this (as I was actually quite looking forward to this when you initially revealed it), because you cant handle a simple critique of a trailer. If this is how you handle criticism from a trailer, good luck when you actually release your game to the masses.
     
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  8. Raionhardt

    Raionhardt Vanguard Member

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    @Xeal You don't need to be done. I made a mistake, but you guys followed it agressivelly after. If was put in other words I could have noticed that I wasn't suficiently specific for you. But I do admit that. I was simple putting my arguments on the desk, but you guys thought that as a denial of critic, which is not the same thing.

    So do you think I was a needless ass at any time for making a mistake? So you not going to ignore a simple internet mistake and kick everything here because it didn't went like you expect or didn't met your expectations? Did I went like any other who would deserve such response (which I still disagree with such behavior unless in very extreme situations)?

    You did this as well on me, even harder, saying I would fail in life and whatever because I aparently do not accept critics. And also exagerates. So I repeat every last word you said on this quote for you too.

    And the last, all that stupidity because some misundertanding and you put that is my fault and no one else. You don't have a single drop of responsability on how you approached this first, right?

    Well, I said you don't need to stop talking, unless you really think I am an asshole and don't deserve your thoughts, then do what you want. But I say, I try to befriend everyone on places, but I expect then to act with education, as much as you expect people to be smart and fast at thinking - and I do normally expect this too, but I don't take serious if they don't.
     
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  9. Misinko

    Misinko Oh SHIT it's the Biolizard! Member

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    Location:
    Ohio
    There is no one-stop solution to getting better at designing levels. College courses simply start you off in the right direction when it comes to game design, they won't tell you how to make it great blow-for-blow. There isn't any one book, or one class that will do it all for you. You know how you get better at designing levels and forming level philosophy? YOU STUDY THE WORKS OF OTHERS! Do you think the greatest authors just decided one day they were gonna write a great book, and then sat down and started writing? No. They spent years upon years of studying the great works of fiction, the hidden gems of authors, and they saw how the greats did things. They noted how the greats structured their sentences. They noticed how the greats described the scenes in the book. They noticed how the greats developed their characters to get the desired reaction from the audience. The same goes for video game design. The Elder Scrolls series does a fantastic job at designing its worlds to be open while interesting. Buy Marrowind and Daggerfall. See how long you wander around in their levels without something happening. See what all the world has to offer you at every turn to keep your interest. See what kind of enemies are placed in each area. Then play the first Fallout, Fallout 2, and New Vegas. Feel the freedom of being able to forge your way through the wastelands. Feel the ability to interact with NPCs. Feel the thrill of finding new things in this desolate world. Then finally, play Minecraft. Understand what true freedom is, and why it's limiting. Understand why it works, and why it fails. Understand why you have to be in a certain mood to play Minecraft. Understand how each individual object is something for you to interact with, and then understand why it can be overwhelming to a new player. Just keep studying level design. If you actually want to make a 3D Sonic game, study Adventure and Generations. See how both games handle openness. Adventure allows you to stray from the beaten path to get to the end faster. Generations has multiple paths for you to take that require quick reactions and thought to get to the best one. With Adventure, you can get to each individual path again by clever abuse of the game's mechanics. With Generations, you're locked to one path. But what you need to see is that there's different approaches to everything.

    You must be pretty selective in whose critique you take, considering you brushed off all of mine.

    Yes I did.

    No I have not, because anyone who's worth their salt is already involved in a project of their own. Besides, I don't know anyone in the community who's good at level design. Poke around to find people to help you. Announce it in your videos. Look on every Sonic site out there.

    This is rich. You're judging my character based on a limited interaction on a forum. I guarantee you, I am much nicer in person. However, there's been multiple events on this forum that have driven me to be the cynical tosser I am now. I'm gonna discuss that when I dissect another of your points though.

    Okay mate, please tell me how expressing anger over a product that is sub par with criticism is a bad thing. Here's what that does: It get's all of the user's frustrations out on the table, so the creator can take them into account and fix them. It will, most likely, make the end product better. Many people on this forum have had their work trashed, and come back with a far better product as a better user as a result. Now, let me tell you why we're "so hard" on users in the Sonic fan game community: Because the scene is flooded with garbage, that is perpetuated day in and day out. One of the most popular Sonic ROM hackers on YouTube makes garbage character swaps, where he just puts a character's mappings over Sonic's sprites. And no one who does any kind of serious hacking likes him. And this is why we're so harsh on poor quality games. We want to see that kind of garbage end. It's going to be around forever, yes, but we all like to think wishfully and hope that it'll one day stop. Criticism that comes from envy is easily dismissed, and usually is. But critique from anger and frustration should be taken into account.

    "My philosophy is wonky, and you trying to prove me wrong and show me why I need to re-think it proves me right."

    ...Yes. Because this is the internet, and that's real life. Societal rules do not fully apply to a forum, especially in one that's structured like a dictatorship like this. That's not a knock against the forums in any way though, I enjoy the mods having the final say in everything. I'm sorry you cannot tell the difference between real life, and the internet.

    We're not other communities. We're the Sonic the Hedgehog community. Other communities don't have to put up with the amount of idiots, ignorant children, and stupidly stubborn individuals that we do. Now then, let me explain why the various events of the forums have made me more cynical towards it. I have seen people come in, post garbage, and expect eons of praise for it. And when they don't get that praise, they throw a fit. I've seen people come in with decent starts, but when the criticism starts to roll in, they shut down, and perpetuate that their idea is the best. I've seen idiots come in, make absolutely useless, and nonsensical posts, and then blow up when people call them out on their garbage. I've seen a few people behave exactly like you have, and quite frankly I'm sick of it. I'm sick of seeing people barge into the forums, and get Limbo'd within the week they joined. I'm sick of seeing people refuse critique whenever it's offered. I'm sick of people disrespecting other users by essentially spitting in their face by disregarding critique that they spent time and effort on typing out, describing their grievances in detail so the author could take note of the specific issues they had. And most of all, I'm sick of the self-important attitude that a good chunk of the users here seem to exert. You want to know why I'm acting so harshly towards you? Because I've dealt with people like you before on this very forum. The only thing you respond to is harshness. That's the only way I can get my point across.

    If your words can be used against you, then they should. That's how you defeat an argument.

    No one's attacking you.

    If you've said something incorrect, you deserve to be proven wrong.

    You are just like every other twat who came in, got his stuff stomped, and reacted in an obscene manner over it. So what, because you got slapped around a little you're going to quit the community? Get over yourself. Quit moping around, and fix your bloody work.


    Arguing against criticism against your work is exactly what denying criticism is. You're not accepting what's been said, you continue to perpetuate that your ideas are "correct".

    You're putting words in his mouth. He never really started kicking you around until you brushed off his critique. He started off by giving you his uncensored, unadulterated thoughts on the matter, and you fought him on his points. You never took his advice into account while you were responding to him.


    Because you've done this. Multiple times now. He never said you would fail in life either. I was the one who basically said your project was going to fail. Meanwhile, he's only been a real jerk to you after you disregarded everything that he said. Meanwhile, you haven't done anything to prove you accept criticism, and the fact that you've only responded positively to DA Garden, who gave you some kudos, doesn't help your case.

    Xeal is very forward in his thoughts at all times. He doesn't reserve himself because he wants to make sure you get the point the first time. He might have a little bit of responsibility in this whole charade, but you're the one who keeps adding fuel to the fire, and you're the one who triggered the backlash.

    Stop putting words in his mouth. He's sick of arguing with you, that's all.

    I don't know what all you want from Xeal. Do you want him to praise you for everything you do? Do you want him to tiptoe around his issues with your project so he doesn't hurt your feelings? His thoughts have been well-structured, well-versed, and well thought-out. That's the mark of an educated man to me. He hasn't said anything out of line thus far. The fact that he can come up with arguments in the manner he does should tell you how quick-thinking he is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  10. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,026
    You know what, let me put a stop to this shit right now.

    Personally, I fully agree with the criticism that has been offered and the manner in which it was offered. You can try calling me uneducated if you want if that's your best line of defence, but as it happens I have some 3D modelling and design work background using the Unreal Engine, so I'd say your point would be worthless if you did.

    I did have good expectations from this fan game, up until I saw the screenshots for "generic robot" at which point I started to view it with more caution, as I hate the lack of imagination the robots have had post Sonic 06. After viewing that trailer, I can honestly say I saw nothing in it that really grabbed my attention at all. The lack of lighting in that special stage in particular was such a bad design choice that I fail to see how it could be construed as a good one. I mean, it's like asking someone to play a game of catch in a pitch black and expecting them to be capable of doing it. It's complete madness and not a true way to up the difficulty, it's just cheap.

    Regarding the rest, it looks bland and uninteresting, which may just be down to the parts you decided to show, but a trailer is supposed to show off the great parts to really hype up the game. In that respect, the trailer fails hard.

    With that said, the author of this topic clearly isn't responding well to criticism so I think any further mention of the same points would just be flogging a dead horse, so from this point can we just stick to some new criticism/praise etc rather than arguing about the same issues.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  11. Raionhardt

    Raionhardt Vanguard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2015
    Messages:
    65
    I won't call you unedecated because you didn't used any harsh words to criticize. I very much accept everything you said. Some I see are personal opnions, like the robots design from 06 onward, but the others are valid.

    Anyway, I am doing a fangame, and I don't really bother much. These guys aren't my players or followers and the shit. We are just seeing a guy (Misinko) with a problematic empty ego that got butthurt because I apparently didn't gave his criticism enough time or aparently ignored it because I educated put my arguments against his criticism first to maintain a discussion. He cleary actually wanted me to feel bad but is seems clear to me he is the one suffering because he criticized something he know shit nothing to try to look better and humiliate me and failed. Too bad he doesn't actually cleary don't know 3D to criticize me, I could have taken his words more seriously because I would have understood he knew what he was saying, but he doesn't know anything, as he claimed my work to be badly textured and all that shit (there is a difference between the paint of texture and the wrap of texture, but he don't know this either, cleary). He is not even worth of another response time. The other guy was more understanding although cleary don't accept he was exagerated.

    To prove my point, I tried to be the most elegant here and admiting my failings, even humiliating myself saying 'I was wrong', 'my design are bad', 'my opnion is crazy. But that was not enough for their empty egos. They still claimed I was some stupid with the head in the ass that didn't accept critics. Please. And you all don't accept being fair here. The thing is that Misinko wanted me to appear humiliated and down by his vomit. And I have to tell you this, @StephenUK , you are on their side. Do you really believe someone who admit their mistakes and humiliate himself is worth receiving the criticism the way it was put? Sorry, but you're being biased towards then.

    I have the same problem with people that do any shit and receive a lot of view. I think this is an injustice. But even then, I don't go to their channels and start trying to criticize the owner or the people who like his work. Know why? Because you can't change the people who like his work opnion, and they don't have a complex taste or knowledge on art and gaming. Most of then also don't receive a dime, but these guy is butthurt because of other people doing this and then acceptedly becoming a cynical, which is a pity. Coudn't he do better than the loser putting sprites on a Game Maker engine? Of course, but he wanted the fame because his ego is empty as well as his person.

    I feel I entered in a cage with some really nasty people that is really on a envious rage of a low quality work. They don't know me and I don't know then, but they judge me personally and my work, but don't want me judging or contesting their character. If they weren't envious, they woudn't get this far to show how horrible the work really is. AND IT IS! I consider my work a PIECE OF SHIT, not worthy what I really wanted and feel bad because of this EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE, struggling to make it better. I say this to my family and friends several times as well. But you know, these guys are really wasting their time here with this stupid piece of shit instead of have ignored it as they have done so far. It is because it got to a dangerous point with a lot of visualization that they got crazy, but don't worry, all those views are from my country community.

    I really don't bother with this getting this far, but if we see more butthurt, I may contact you asking to delete my topics, but I ask to only do it if I consider to do so. For now, I really not worring. I don't want to make more people angry with bad work.
     
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  12. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic Also known as RHS Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,970
    Location:
    England
    I think I'm going to have to repeat my action with Ashuro's topic. I'm too scared to give my opinion on the video because it's similar to everyone else's, and it's that's been made clear already. And it turned out to be a shit-fest of arguments.

    This topic will now be locked and remain locked, unless on two conditions:
    • Raionhardt has new content he would like to share (PM me and I'll unlock the topic)
    • An admin over-turns my decision

    Until then...
     
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  13. StephenUK

    StephenUK Working on a Quackshot disassembly Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,026
    Just to add a bit onto this, the reason you are receiving such attacks is because you seem to think that if someone has no 3D experience, they have no right to judge your work. The criticism was fine by everyone right up until you made that statement, which is like saying I have to be a chef to judge whether food tastes like shit or not. The majority of gamers are not game designers, but do you really think they'll be any less critical when they play a game? That kind of statement is what gets people's backs up, and rightly so. Regardless of what other people may or may not have done in the past, nobody is to tell me I'm uneducated just because I may not be able to do that particular thing.

    I think you need to educate yourself a lot in the way the gaming industry works, regardless of whether you are a one man army or not. Any game put into the public is open for praise and criticism, whether you like it or not. Criticism will never be nice to hear, as it will always be someone not liking something you have worked hard on, but as long as the criticism is constructive and not just "that looks shit", then you can take it as something to work from to improve yourself. All I've seen from your responses was an attitude of "How dare you criticise my work you uneducated prick", which to be perfectly honest deserves the kind of response you got.

    I'm going to reopen this again just because there is still room for discussion on the trailer in both a positive and negative light, but I don't want to see it turn into more shit throwing or I'll lock it again.
     
  14. LazloPsylus

    LazloPsylus The Railgun Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    Location:
    Academy City
    Yay, a mess!

    Alright, I'm not one for stepping into these messes past locking them, but I feel like there's reason to make an exception in this case. I'm not on anyone's side for this, and quite honestly, I could not give much less of a shit in regards to the outcome of the project, good or bad, but there is a massive disjoint here in your mentality, Raionhardt. I sat down and read every post in this thread from beginning to end, and I'm seeing one major thing stand out, and that's you. Intentionally? Probably not. But you think you are doing and what you actually are doing are two very different things. You state you are accepting criticism and are being humble, but your own posts project a very different message. For every criticism made, you insist on explaining away the reasoning behind it, as if trying to justify something being the way it is. That doesn't come off as understanding and accepting criticism at all; it comes off as condescending. Misinko and Xeal can be rough when they're frustrated, but their views are no less valid because of it. Your responses to them, while you consider them innocuous, proceed to dismantle and invalidate their points and justify your approach over their insight.

    What people doing in this thread isn't attacking. If it were attacking, they would be tearing into your personal character and integrity quite violently. None of them are doing that. They are instead pointing out that, from their perspective, there's many flaws in your work. As no one's perfect and there's always things that can be improved, that's pretty much something normal for anything posted publicly for viewing on the Internet. As a content developer, you're put in the line of fire for anything regarding work you're even remotely connected to. It's part of the innate deal we accept when we decide to publish anything on the Internet for others to see. Criticism will come in many different forms, but the worst things you can do are to outright ignore most all criticism because "they don't understand", criticize the critics, or talk down to the critics. You're doing the latter two, whether you intend to or not, and that is why you're in the mess you're in now. All of this mess and pot-shotting could have been avoided if you had simply said thanks for the criticism and noted that you'll take what was said into consideration and use it to improve the work. If there's something you're not clear on, you can simply ask them to clarify what they mean. No condescension, no explanations for why, no resistance, just accepting and moving on. We get it, you've got a lot into your work emotionally and you want to protect it and defend it, but that's not going to help you at all to act on. Instead, that just makes you look like an ass to people, and the result is this dogpile.

    Another note, no one wants to ban you. You may have acted foolish at points, but you have to do a decent amount more to actually earn a ban. Staff can (and will) disagree with you without wanting to ban you, because we're all humans with differing opinions. Hell, the staff disagree on crap all the time. It's normal. What you're reading as hostility is really people trying to break through that stubborn front you're putting up and attempting to drive home the fact that the people here aren't being mean to you and degrading your work, but are instead trying to help you improve and step up your work to the next level. Yeah, people around here can jump on mediocrity sharply at times, but their intention behind it isn't to reduce you to nothing. It's to show you and push you to learn what you're not doing so well with and how you can grow and improve.

    Step back, take a few breaths, and stop assuming everyone's out to get you. You'll realize that behind the bluntness and perceived attacking, there's a lot of information you can use to make your work many leagues better. Don't fight the criticism, embrace it. You can go very far if you do.
     
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  15. EMK-20218

    EMK-20218 The Fuss Maker Exiled

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    Jardim Capelinha, São Paulo
    There's many poor comments and shit storms in this post, for sure. But...
    I like what I see and I have good expectations coming out of this project.
    I really don't think that we saying the project is shit will help Raionhartd to improve the stuff in this project, which in my opinion is awesome.
    Except for the need of some adjustments here and there, it's a very cool work. I respect the effort applied on it, since it's something I really have no idea of how to do. I also noticed the linearity of the level design and the lack of some important things, but I'm sure this project great in its final (or next release of the) product. Wonderful job until now!

    As for the criticism... I honestly think that a constructive criticism is well respectable, but some I saw here was really unecessary and makes me to agree with Raionhartd in some points. I really hope these shit storms would be unable to transform this topic into something bad because I have good expectations and I want to see more of this project later. As a Sonic fan I want to keep my good feelings on it to don't to make Raionhartd to lose his motivation like I saw happening with a huge load of projects in the community. Most of them are currently cancelled due to the lack of respect of people to them or to their authors.
     
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